What Do We Know about the Resurrection of Jesus?

[_Res Ipsa]

Kevin, I really don't understand.

I don't believe in God, but I do believe in trying to preserve some good things for our descendants. Like a livable climate. I don't understand why one needs to believe in God to believe in trying to preserve some good things.

As an aside, I have no reason to believe that I can preserve anything forever. We have a pretty good idea of what the end of the universe looks like. But that doesn't affect my desire to preserve some good things for our descendants.

Res Ipsa, that's a great way to start. I commend you for your belief "in trying to preserve some good things for our descendants."

As far as your "pretty good idea of what the end of the universe looks like," I think you're selling humanity short. I think there's no telling what humans can accomplish, if they have enough time to work on the problems facing us, and we have, by some accounts 100 billion (and by others 10 trillion) years to work with. Do we know that this universe is the only universe in existence? Or the only universe suited for human life? Do we know that we will never find a way to dig a wormhole between this universe and another one, and by so doing extend the lifetime of all sentient species indefinitely? I don't think we know any of those things. So we shouldn't give up. And if it should just so turn out that we do so extend the lifetime of the species, then can that really be that far from what I've called the work of God?

Thanks, Kevin. But I don't think you answered my question. Why is belief in God necessary for one to want to preserve good things?

As for the rest, it depends on what you mean by "know." There is a reasonable basis to believe there are multiple universes. We have no reason to form any belief about their suitability for human life. We have no reason to believe we can tunnel through to other universes. We have lots of reason to believe this will continue to increase in entropy until there is no source of energy capable of sustaining the human species.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep on learning all we can and, if we learn that we could pop off to another uuniverse, try to do so.

As for your last sentence, the fact that you choose to call something the work of God and the fact that I think that something is a good idea doesn't say anything to me about whether God exists.

[_I have a question]

What would be the point of saying "a leprechaun is in control of the universe"?

Because the leprechaun wants to preserve some good things forever.

[_KevinSim]

What would be the point of saying "a leprechaun is in control of the universe"?

Because the leprechaun wants to preserve some good things forever.

I'm glad to hear s/he wants to preserve some good things forever. Does s/he have the capability to preserve some good things forever?

[_I have a question]

What would be the point of saying "a leprechaun is in control of the universe"?

Because the leprechaun wants to preserve some good things forever.

I'm glad to hear s/he wants to preserve some good things forever. Does s/he have the capability to preserve some good things forever?

How would I know if they did or did not have that capability?

[_KevinSim]

I was trying to explain why I believe in the existence of a God who is in control of the universe. What does the creation of the universe have to do with that?

Okay, thanks for clarifying. It's the fundamental forces of physics that control the universe, so where is God's role?

DT, you've obviously not been reading all of the other posts on this thread. That's not bad; sometimes I skip around too. But the answer is that God's role is to preserve forever some good things.

Maybe I just don't understand the Matrix. Did the people who brought the Matrix into existence do it for the benefit of the people in the Matrix, and are they available to help those people should those people need help?

The Matrix is just an unproven idea, the existence of God is an unproven belief. The Matrix as an explanation is just as useful as saying that God did it.

If you believe in God, you can spend time praying with the hope that God will inspire you in the actions you take. I find that that kind of prayer really adds to my life. If you believe in the Matrix, do you get anything beneficial from that belief at all? If you believe in the Matrix, does that imply that you can get any help from the people that produced the Matrix? It just seems like belief in the Matrix is a dead end, while belief in God has the potential to transform your life for good.

My reasons for believing in God are based on something else entirely. As I've stated in my post to Shades, I'm convinced that humanity needs a God. .

but Max More (transhumanist) says the same thing about futuristic technology. Just because we need something doesn't mean it's true.

That's absolutely true, and I certainly don't have any decisive proof that God actually exists. I kind of think God does because I'm pretty sure that some being or beings with free will existed from at least the time of the Big Bang, because I'm convinced I have free will, which means I'm non-deterministic, and I don't see how a totally deterministic universe can produce non-deterministic people like the people who live on Earth. Of course, several people on this forum think that I probably don't have free will, but I find their arguments for that unpersuasive.

Res Ipsa, that's a great way to start. I commend you for your belief "in trying to preserve some good things for our descendants."

As far as your "pretty good idea of what the end of the universe looks like," I think you're selling humanity short. I think there's no telling what humans can accomplish, if they have enough time to work on the problems facing us, and we have, by some accounts 100 billion (and by others 10 trillion) years to work with. Do we know that this universe is the only universe in existence? Or the only universe suited for human life? Do we know that we will never find a way to dig a wormhole between this universe and another one, and by so doing extend the lifetime of all sentient species indefinitely? I don't think we know any of those things. So we shouldn't give up. And if it should just so turn out that we do so extend the lifetime of the species, then can that really be that far from what I've called the work of God?

Thanks, Kevin. But I don't think you answered my question. Why is belief in God necessary for one to want to preserve good things?

It's not necessary. It's not even necessary for one to want to preserve forever some good things. I happen to be one of the people that wants to preserve forever some good things, and it's just that I see the task of preserving them forever too huge for me to take on by myself, and yet I recognize that it has to be done, so I'm going on the hope that someone already exists who is doing it and who can guide me along to do my part. I really don't see an alternative (to belief in God) that I can get my arms around. Do you?

As for the rest, it depends on what you mean by "know." There is a reasonable basis to believe there are multiple universes. We have no reason to form any belief about their suitability for human life. We have no reason to believe we can tunnel through to other universes. We have lots of reason to believe this will continue to increase in entropy until there is no source of energy capable of sustaining the human species.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep on learning all we can and, if we learn that we could pop off to another uuniverse, try to do so.

This attitude is precisely what I'm asking for.

As for your last sentence, the fact that you choose to call something the work of God and the fact that I think that something is a good idea doesn't say anything to me about whether God exists.

As I think I said in another post, I have no decisive proof that God exists. All I'm saying is that if you recognize that your conscientious obligation to future generations of human beings is to try to find out some way to preserve forever some good things, and if that task is too burdensome for you to shoulder all by yourself, then you'd better hope that someone else is able to shoulder it, because it has to be done. On the other hand, if you find that you are able to shoulder it all by yourself, then more power to you, and you have no conscientious need to believe in God at all. Perhaps all you need at that point is to believe in yourself.

I'm glad to hear s/he wants to preserve some good things forever. Does s/he have the capability to preserve some good things forever?

How would I know if they did or did not have that capability?

If you don't know if they did or did not, then there's no point of saying they are in control of the universe.

[_I have a question]

Because the leprechaun wants to preserve some good things forever.

I'm glad to hear s/he wants to preserve some good things forever. Does s/he have the capability to preserve some good things forever?

How would I know if they did or did not have that capability?

If you don't know if they did or did not, then there's no point of saying they are in control of the universe.

How about if I simply choose to believe the leprechaun has that capability?

[_KevinSim]

I started off this thread stating that I believed in God and that I was still a devout Latter-day Saint, because I didn't want to give anybody a false impression by my questions about how solid the evidence was that Jesus of Nazareth had actually risen from the dead. I did not intend to argue that anyone should believe in God or that that God had inspired the LDS Church. (I could do that, but that was not the intent of this thread.) All I wanted to do was get some kind of perspective on what we know about what happened in Jersusalem in the First Century.

Thanks to a lot of you, I have gotten precisely what I needed on that subject. But, contrary to my wishes, this thread has turned into a pretty serious discussion on the subject of whether or not someone can know that God exists and, to a lesser extent, whether or not someone can know that that God has inspired the LDS Church.

I guess I'm just curious whether anybody has anything else to tell me about whether or not someone can know that Jesus rose from the dead. I don't want that to get drowned under all the other discussion.

How would I know if they did or did not have that capability?

If you don't know if they did or did not, then there's no point of saying they are in control of the universe.

How about if I simply choose to believe the leprechaun has that capability?

Then by all means, believe in that leprechaun.

[_I have a question]

How about if I simply choose to believe the leprechaun has that capability?

Then by all means, believe in that leprechaun.

The leprechaun says he would find it easier to achieve if you paid ten percent of your income to his helpers here on earth (I.e. Me).

I started off this thread stating that I believed in God and that I was still a devout Latter-day Saint, because I didn't want to give anybody a false impression by my questions about how solid the evidence was that Jesus of Nazareth had actually risen from the dead. I did not intend to argue that anyone should believe in God or that that God had inspired the LDS Church. (I could do that, but that was not the intent of this thread.) All I wanted to do was get some kind of perspective on what we know about what happened in Jersusalem in the First Century.

Thanks to a lot of you, I have gotten precisely what I needed on that subject. But, contrary to my wishes, this thread has turned into a pretty serious discussion on the subject of whether or not someone can know that God exists and, to a lesser extent, whether or not someone can know that that God has inspired the LDS Church.

I guess I'm just curious whether anybody has anything else to tell me about whether or not someone can know that Jesus rose from the dead. I don't want that to get drowned under all the other discussion.

The question about Jesus rising from the dead and the one about Gods existence are fundamentally the same. You believe both, there's no objective evidence for either, so now what?

[_DoubtingThomas]

If you believe in God, you can spend time praying with the hope that God will inspire you in the actions you take. I find that that kind of prayer really adds to my life. If you believe in the Matrix, do you get anything beneficial from that belief at all? If you believe in the Matrix, does that imply that you can get any help from the people that produced the Matrix? It just seems like belief in the Matrix is a dead end, while belief in God has the potential to transform your life for good.

why not believe in cryonics and transhumanism instead? Do you really need to believe in gods to hope for a better future?

I'm convinced I have free will, which means I'm non-deterministic, and I don't see how a totally deterministic universe can produce non-deterministic people like the people who live on Earth.

In physics there is something called the uncertainty principle. Living physicists don't believe our universe is deterministic. Einstein believed in a deterministic universe, but he was wrong. If we rewind time to the Big Bang things won't be the same.

[_I have a question]

If you believe in God, you can spend time praying with the hope that God will inspire you in the actions you take. I find that that kind of prayer really adds to my life. If you believe in the Matrix, do you get anything beneficial from that belief at all? If you believe in the Matrix, does that imply that you can get any help from the people that produced the Matrix? It just seems like belief in the Matrix is a dead end, while belief in God has the potential to transform your life for good.

If you believe in the makers of The Matrix, you can spend time praying with the hope that the makers of The Matrix will inspire you in the actions you take. I find that that kind of prayer really adds to my life. If you believe in God, do you get anything beneficial from that belief at all? If you believe in God, does that imply that you can get any help from the people that produced God? It just seems like belief in God is a dead end, while belief in the makers of The Matrix has the potential to transform your life for good.


The demonstration above cannot be any clearer in making my point.
Maybe the penny will drop for KevinSim, maybe it won't.
Oh well.