I know the church is true........What does this even mean?

[_deacon blues]

I think this well worn phrase may mean something different to everybody. When I was active, I didn't use it, because it didn't fit with what I felt about the church. However, I was perfectly comfortable with saying that I believed in principles taught by the church. That worked for about 45 years, including two years on a mission. I know there are a few believers, as well as non-believers who participate here. What does it mean to say "I know the church is true?" Does it mean the same thing at 50 that it did at five? For Post LDS, does it mean something different now than it did when you believed?" How old were you when you first said it? Have you ever asked yourself, "Is it possible that the church isn't true?" Have you ever asked yourself, "If the church wasn't true, would I want to know? or "How would I know?"

[_zerinus]

“Knowing” that the Church is true one of the gifts of the Spirit:

D&C 46:

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

Everyone does not have the same gift. But we are all able to bless the Church with the gifts we have.

[_deacon blues]

Zerinius, thanks for a fine, succinct explanation of "knowing." Now, what does it mean to say "the church" and "is true?"
I also noted that the scripture you use speaks of "knowing" that Jesus is the Messiah. Although you were speaking of the process of "knowing", I think it's important that the reference does not speak of the church, but of Jesus Christ himself. It is important to remember that God and the church are not one and the same.

[_zerinus]

Zerinius, thanks for a fine, succinct explanation of "knowing." Now, what does it mean to say "the church" and "is true?"

By “the Church” is meant the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, organizationally and institutionally. By “true” is meant “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually” (D&C 1:30). It means that it is the only one that is organized and approved by God, and acknowledged by him. It means that it is the only one that has genuine priesthood authority, and can administer in the name of God. It means that it is the only one that is able to commune with God, obtain the mind of God by revelation, and act according to his will.

I also noted that the scripture you use speaks of "knowing" that Jesus is the Messiah. Although you were speaking of the process of "knowing", I think it's important that the reference does not speak of the church, but of Jesus Christ himself. It is important to remember that God and the church are not one and the same.

Agreed; but the process by which all divine truth is known is the same: “And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Moroni 10:5)

[Guest]

It is a meaningless catch phrase designed to create cohesion within the church while at the same time allowing a wide spectrum of belief. If examined closely on an individual basis it fails as a means to define a consistent doctrine of any sort. One need look no further than MAD to see how many people over there know the church is "true" while at the same time holding completely contradictory beliefs or, in the case of MFB allowing for all beliefs at the same time.

Similar meaningless LDS phrases are:

"Families are forever"
"Choose the right"
"Ongoing Revelation"
"Eternal Glory"
"Power of the Priesthood"
"Eternal Families"
"Power of the Holy Ghost"

And so on.

I know this to be true by the the burning in my bosom.

[_RockSlider]

zerinus,

It just struck me why D&C section 139 was not written down and published to the Church.

“You are now longer the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. I the Lord, am no longer well pleased with you. In fact I'm asking you to quit using my name in any association with leading your Church."

how awkward, perhaps we should at least stop saying we have seen him!

[_Maksutov]

The Mormon Mantra. Doesn't require wearing beads to remember complicated prayers.

[_Maksutov]

It is a meaningless catch phrase designed to create cohesion within the church while at the same time allowing a wide spectrum of belief. If examined closely on an individual basis it fails as a means to define a consistent doctrine of any sort. One need look no further than MAD to see how many people over there know the church is "true" while at the same time holding completely contradict beliefs or, in the case of MFB allowing for all beliefs at the same time.

Similar meaningless LDS phrases are:

"Families are forever"
"Choose the right"
"Ongoing Revelation"
"Eternal Glory"
"Power of the Priesthood"
"Eternal Families"
"Power of the Holy Ghost"

And so on.

I know this to be true by the the burning in my bosom.

Students of propaganda refer to them as "thought terminating cliches". "Doubt your doubts" is the most obvious example.

[_honorentheos]

Students of propaganda refer to them as "thought terminating cliches". "Doubt your doubts" is the most obvious example.

Exactly.

To answer the OP, leaving the Church for me included coming to understand that LDS epistemology was deeply, deeply flawed. Zerinius provided us with the basics of this, which come down to knowledge being a gift given to us from God. We can pray for knowledge, and we have some assurance that God will provide it. Alternatively, we can expect that when we receive what we believe is knowledge we have been given it as a gift rather than it being derived exclusively from a defined process.

What it breeds is a tendency to short-change the learning process. Mormons are taught that a positive emotional response to something is the gold standard for having gained knowledge, and thus an assurance that what they know is also true. And by true, meaning that regardless of other evidence a person has an assurance that this knowledge is actionable and reliable.

It also has the effect of rendering a person resistant to evidence because once a person has an assurance of something then it becomes the arbiter of how reliable is the evidence rather than the evidence being the arbiter of how reliable is the thing believed to be true. And that is incredibly damning. In every sense of the word.

In effect, I think the acceptance of this term and the underlying esistemological beliefs are damaging. I feel fortunate for the associations I made as I moved away from the church that helped illuminate the problem if only to expose the deep skepticism that results from a better episemological approach.

It also goes hand-in-hand with something another poster said here years ago that stuck with me. That being, that as a believing LDS if he were asked to rate his level of certainty of a belief on a scale of 1-10 regarding most things, his ratings would have been 1-2 and 9-10 with very, very few beliefs receiving something other than complete certitude it was true or not true. As a post-Mormon, the opposite became true as certitude became an incredibly difficult standard for the supporting evidence and lack of potential for new discovery to achieve. Most beliefs would be in the middle ranges with a few 2's and 9's. 1's and 10's might exist but examples would be hard to come by immediately.

To me, someone using the phrase, "I know X to be true" shows something is flawed in their understanding of knowledge, how it's obtained, or what it even means.

[_zerinus]

zerinus,

It just struck me why D&C section 139 was not written down and published to the Church.

“You are now longer the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. I the Lord, am no longer well pleased with you. In fact I'm asking you to quit using my name in any association with leading your Church."

Probably because they received D&C section 140 soon after which said,

“Well done good and faithful servants, you have repented of your so sins, therefore your sins are forgiven you.”

The two cancelled each other out.