Philo Sofee wrote:And what have you ever proved that causes anyone of us to accept your belief? In other words what's the net result of you totally having a 100% win streak in every debate you've ever had?
You are not following me. You insist that I “prove” to you that there is a God. I would be very unlikely to want to engage someone in such a discussion, to be able to win or lose it. If, however, someone already shared with me the belief in the existence of God, and that he has spoken to us through the prophets, I am more than willing to engage in a theological discussion with them about the correctness of Mormon doctrine based on the Bible, and be guaranteed to win!
Philo Sofee wrote:And what have you ever proved that causes anyone of us to accept your belief? In other words what's the net result of you totally having a 100% win streak in every debate you've ever had?
You are not following me. You insist that I “prove” to you that there is a God. I would be very unlikely to want to engage someone in such a discussion, to be able to win or lose it. If, however, someone already shared with me the belief in the existence of God, and that he has spoken to us through the prophets, I am more than willing to engage in a theological discussion with them about the correctness of Mormon doctrine based on the Bible, and be guaranteed to win!
Running is winning? Hiding is winning? Then you're a winner.
Sorry, but you're a coward, Z. Face it. You only like rigged games. You can't do it on your own. We've seen how your clock gets cleaned out there among the other believers, so you're just lying again to avoid taking on the exMormons who know all your tricks. It's okay, we understand that it's all you've got. It's too bad nobody wants to read your books. I'm sure they're at least as empty and banal as that put out by the FAIR boys.
Philo Sofee wrote:And what have you ever proved that causes anyone of us to accept your belief? In other words what's the net result of you totally having a 100% win streak in every debate you've ever had?
You are not following me. You insist that I “prove” to you that there is a God. I would be very unlikely to want to engage someone in such a discussion, to be able to win or lose it. If, however, someone already shared with me the belief in the existence of God, and that he has spoken to us through the prophets, I am more than willing to engage in a theological discussion with them about the correctness of Mormon doctrine based on the Bible, and be guaranteed to win!
I am well aware your assumptions are weak, and you refuse to test them.....
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
Philo Sofee wrote:I am well aware your assumptions are weak, and you refuse to test them.....
They are not weak, they are just not the kind that is worth debating over with an unbeliever. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever been to China? Have you seen the great Wall of China for yourself? I haven’t, and I am guessing that you probably haven’t either. If you have, let us assume for the sake of the argument that you haven’t. If so, how do you know that it exists? The answer is, by the number and credibility of the witness. That is how I know the great Wall of China exists, even though I have never been there. I could still be wrong of course. It could still all be an elaborate hoax. But I think I can trust my judgement enough to be able to say with confidence that I “know” that it exists. Now if you want to play the skeptic, and insist that I “prove” to you that it exists, otherwise you would not believe, there isn’t much I could do, short of buying you a ticket and taking you there, which I may not want to do. And even if I did, you could still claim that it was a trick! Proving God has the added difficulty that he is not an inanimate object. He is a powerful and intelligent being, and he cannot be made to participate in such an experiment against his will.
So how do I know there is a God? In two ways. First, by the credibility and abundance of witnesses. I find the testimony of the witnesses in scripture (as well as those of the Restoration) convincing—like the Wall of China. If you don’t; if you still want to play the skeptic; there isn’t a lot that I can do to help that. Secondly, I know it through the manifestations of the Spirit of God to myself, which is intended for me, and cannot be described to someone else. Having gained the initial faith through the testimony of the witnesses, and through the exercise of that faith, I have received further spiritual witnesses which convinces me (with certainty) that there is a God. This is how the Book of Mormon says we can know there is a God:
Alma 30:
44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.
Alma 32:
17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe. 18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it. 19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression? 20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work. 21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true. 22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word. 23 And now, he imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, not only men but women also. Now this is not all; little children do have words given unto them many times, which confound the wise and the learned. 24 And now, my beloved brethren, as ye have desired to know of me what ye shall do because ye are afflicted and cast out—now I do not desire that ye should suppose that I mean to judge you only according to that which is true— 25 For I do not mean that ye all of you have been compelled to humble yourselves; for I verily believe that there are some among you who would humble themselves, let them be in whatsoever circumstances they might. 26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge. 27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge. 30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. 31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness. 32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away. 33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good. 34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand. 35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect? 36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good. 37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit. 38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out. 39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof. 40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life. 41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.
What you want to do is to twist God’s arm to reveal himself to you. You can’t do it that way. If you want God to reveal himself to you, you have to persuade him to, not twist his arm to; and you can only do that by faith, like it says in Alma chapter 32. There is no other way. If you are looking for a purely philosophical proof for the existence of God, those kinds of proofs exist too. But they are not the kind of proof that can generate faith; and you cannot get much traction with God without faith.
So how do I know there is a God? In two ways. First, by the credibility and abundance of witnesses. I find the testimony of the witnesses in scripture (as well as those of the Restoration) convincing—like the Wall of China. If you don’t; if you still want to play the skeptic; there isn’t a lot that I can do to help that.
Yes, the first problem is the credibility. As God is currently described by LDS leadership, it has no credibility. And the second problem is, as God is described, the abundance of witnesses is irrelevant. I don't find the scriptures either credible or accurate in an enormous number of things, therefore I realize they are also just man made written documents, not descriptions of reality. I KNOW the Great Wall of China is real because I have actually seen it, on television, and the scientific ability of television to depict reality is quite credible. It is actual evidence I can rely on, unlike any mere words of men with agendas credibility concerning their gods, you included.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
And I know that the Book of Mormon is false. And that your priesthood is impotent, and your god insignificant - Remember when I challenged you to smite me with your magic powers?
I guess we are at an impasse.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
Themis wrote:How do you say it's not about similar beliefs and then argue you need similar beliefs? If you disagree with the assumptions of astronomers they can still have a discussion with you about why you disagree with them. You avoid those kind of questions put to you here about how you know the church is true.
I know the Church is true because the Spirit of God bears witness to me that it is true. That is how Christians in general know that there is a God who has spoken to us in the Bible.
I was hanging out with god, Exu, and I asked him if the Book of Mormon is true. Exu replied "no, I tricked Joseph Smith into writing the Book of Mormon to sow discord".
Case closed.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
Philo Sofee wrote:Yes, the first problem is the credibility. As God is currently described by LDS leadership, it has no credibility.
That is a choice that you make. There is no objectivity in that statement. I look at the same Deity, and see plenty of credibility. It is your word against mine.
And the second problem is, as God is described, the abundance of witnesses is irrelevant. I don't find the scriptures either credible or accurate in an enormous number of things, therefore I realize they are also just man made written documents, not descriptions of reality.
We just have to agree to disagree then. That is why I have said that it is not possible for a believer and an unbeliever to resolve their differences by a rational argument.
I KNOW the Great Wall of China is real because I have actually seen it, on television, and the scientific ability of television to depict reality is quite credible.
How do you know that it has not all been an elaborate hoax? Just because you have seen on the telly does not necessarily make it real.
It is actual evidence I can rely on, unlike any mere words of men with agendas credibility concerning their gods, you included.
What you call "evidence" is nothing more than credible testimonies. Well, to me the testimonies of Moses, Jesus, Peter, John, or Joseph Smith are equally credible. Just because you don't believe it does not make it any less credible. I find them very credible.
philo sofee wrote:I KNOW the Great Wall of China is real because I have actually seen it, on television, and the scientific ability of television to depict reality is quite credible.
How do you know that it has not all been an elaborate hoax? Just because you have seen on the telly does not necessarily make it real.
But you do find stories of the supernatural to be credible. This brings into serious doubt your ability to ascertain credibility, and weakens your argument considerably.
Lemmie wrote:But you do find stories of the supernatural to be credible. This brings into serious doubt your ability to ascertain credibility, and weakens your argument considerably.
Z has no argument. No evidence. Just assertions and appeals to solipsism. If he had even had a Philosophy 101 course he would be past this, but he's found a pious defense for his determined ignorance and cowardice, just like other cultists.
Z is a proud member of the group of people who don't have the humility to learn. They have to invent a whole parallel universe of faux authorities and fake evidence to try to shore up their fragile egos. It's like Little Nipper dissing Einstein. It's hilarious and sad, too.
It's too bad nobody wants to read your books. I'm sure they're at least as empty and banal as that put out by the FAIR boys.
If you disagree with the assumptions of astronomers they can still have a discussion with you about why you disagree with them. You avoid those kind of questions put to you here about how you know the church is true.