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Re: OK I'm Going to be Honest, I am Miffed!
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:34 pm
by _krose
The Great Wall is a terrible example in this case, because you would be hard pressed to find anyone who does not believe it exists. A more accurate analogy to Mormonism would be Bigfoot (or Nessie or an abominable snowman or alien), something that a small percentage of people believe in or claim to have seen.
I have never seen a Sasquatch, and I don't believe they exist. Some people do believe, and they can't seem to be talked out of their belief no matter what. Lack of actual evidence doesn't matter; they are just sure.
But if I actually ran into one I would certainly change my mind and become a believer. And I would never recant this experience and deny it ever happened, as the Book of Mormon claims Laman and Lemuel did (a dumb story by the way -- real people would never do that).
Similarly, if I ever saw solid evidence of the truth of Mormonism (an angel or deity witnessing to me, the original plates with independent translation, etc.) I would definitely become a solid, permanent believer.
For me, fantastical claims, such as Sasquatch or Gold Plates, require exceptional evidence to be believed. Witness testimony of others who claim to 'know' just doesn't cut it. The only reason I ever believed LDS claims is that I first accepted them as a gullible child, and never thought to question them until adulthood.
Re: OK I'm Going to be Honest, I am Miffed!
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:38 am
by _zerinus
krose wrote:The Great Wall is a terrible example in this case, because you would be hard pressed to find anyone who does not believe it exists. A more accurate analogy to Mormonism would be Bigfoot (or Nessie or an abominable snowman or alien), something that a small percentage of people believe in or claim to have seen.
I have never seen a Sasquatch, and I don't believe they exist. Some people do believe, and they can't seem to be talked out of their belief no matter what. Lack of actual evidence doesn't matter; they are just sure.
But if I actually ran into one I would certainly change my mind and become a believer. And I would never recant this experience and deny it ever happened, as the Book of Mormon claims Laman and Lemuel did (a dumb story by the way -- real people would never do that).
Similarly, if I ever saw solid evidence of the truth of Mormonism (an angel or deity witnessing to me, the original plates with independent translation, etc.) I would definitely become a solid, permanent believer.
For me, fantastical claims, such as Sasquatch or Gold Plates, require exceptional evidence to be believed. Witness testimony of others who claim to 'know' just doesn't cut it. The only reason I ever believed LDS claims is that I first accepted them as a gullible child, and never thought to question them until adulthood.
What you seem to be oblivious to is that if your reasoning is correct, that would undermine your belief system more than mine. I thought you said that you were an Evangelical Christian? If so, how do you know that there is a God, if not by the witnesses of the prophets and apostles of God in the Bible?
Re: OK I'm Going to be Honest, I am Miffed!
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:22 am
by _Lemmie
zerinus wrote:krose wrote:For me, fantastical claims, such as Sasquatch or Gold Plates, require exceptional evidence to be believed. Witness testimony of others who claim to 'know' just doesn't cut it. The only reason I ever believed LDS claims is that I first accepted them as a gullible child, and never thought to question them until adulthood.
What you seem to be oblivious to is that if your reasoning is correct, that would undermine your belief system more than mine.
How so? krose was quite clear in his/her reasoning.
Your reasoning, on the other hand, is based on several inaccuracies, starting with your misunderstanding of the word "evidence":
z wrote:It is actual evidence I can rely on, unlike any mere words of men with
What you call "evidence" is nothing more than credible testimonies. ...I find them very credible.
Evidence is not defined as "testimony."
And, regardless of the place of testimony in a process of evaluating evidence, you weaken your very argument by refusing to give any support for your assessment of testimony other than you "find them...credible."
So, no evidence, and only your sense that non-evidential testimony is credible. Your argument collapses to feelings, which is fine if you stopped there, but for you to dress your feelings up as "equally [as] credible" as actual evidence is meaningless.
The second inaccuracy occurs here:
zerinus wrote:So how do I know there is a God? In two ways. First, by the credibility and abundance of witnesses.
Abundance. of witnesses. So the more witnesses who testify, the truer something is? If 20 people tell you a pyramid scheme really works, will you believe twice as much as if only 10 people told you? If no one tells you it works, only then will you accept that it's a scam?
Re: OK I'm Going to be Honest, I am Miffed!
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:13 pm
by _krose
zerinus wrote:What you seem to be oblivious to is that if your reasoning is correct, that would undermine your belief system more than mine. I thought you said that you were an Evangelical Christian? If so, how do you know that there is a God, if not by the witnesses of the prophets and apostles of God in the Bible?
You must have me confused with someone else. My 'belief system' is based on solid, verifiable evidence. I'm still waiting for evidence of anything supernatural (gods, angels, fairies, demons, etc.) and not expecting it anytime soon.
Re: OK I'm Going to be Honest, I am Miffed!
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:01 pm
by _zerinus
krose wrote:You must have me confused with someone else. My 'belief system' is based on solid, verifiable evidence. I'm still waiting for evidence of anything supernatural (gods, angels, fairies, demons, etc.) and not expecting it anytime soon.
Evidently I did! I confused you with kairos. krose/kairos easy to confuse.