Do you Mormons really imagine that Eve brought forth alone the billions and billions who have come to this earth?
Polygamy is a reality of Eternal Life. The mere scent of it made men mad at first wiff. You cannot get around that in Mormonism.
Women are saved in childbearing. Men on the other hand must have their seed sanctified and even after that be proven at all hazards to endure unto their calling and election made sure, whereby they are given Eternal Life. Women need not be given the promise of Eternal Life. It is a priesthood only burden. Women are given to and sealed to those who have Eternal Life. Do you Mormons really imagine that Eve brought forth alone the billions and billions who have come to this earth? That will be an affront to equal rights for women.
...verily thus saith the lord unto hyram smith if he will come strateaway to far west and inquire of his brother it shall be shown him how that he may be freed from debt and obtain a grate treasure in the earth even so amen. (Joseph Smith to Hyrum Smith, 1838, Dean C. Jessee, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, page 358)
William [Smith] has been some unwell, but is now enjoying good health George [A. Smith] has been afflicted with his eyes, but they are getting better, and in fine, all the Camp is in as good a situation as could be expected; but our numbers and means are altogether too small for the accomplishment of such a great enterprise, but they are falling daily and our only hope is that whilst we deter the enemy, and terrify them for a little season (for we learn by the means of some spies we send out for that purpose that they are greatly terrified) notwithstanding they are endeavoring to make a formidable stand, and their numbers amount to several hundred, and the Lord shows us to good advantage in the eyes of their spies, for in counting us the[y] make of our 170 men from five to seven hundred and the reports of the people are not a little calculated [to] frighten and strike terror through their ranks for the general report is that four or five hundred Mormons are traveling through the Country well-armed, and disciplined; and that five hundred more has gone a south west [course?] and expect to meet us, and also another company are on a rout[e] North of us, all these things serve to help us, and we believe the hand of the Lord is in it, Now is the time for the Church abroad to come to Zion. It is our prayer day and night that God will open the heart of the Churches to pour in men and means to assist us, for the redemption of Zion and upbuilding of Zion. We want the Elders in Kirtland to use every exertion to influence the Church to come speedily to our relief.
1 Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people—
2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.
7 I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church, for they are not all under this condemnation;
8 But I speak concerning my churches abroad—there are many who will say: Where is their God? Behold, he will deliver them in time of trouble, otherwise we will not go up unto Zion, and will keep our moneys.
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—
10 That they themselves may be prepared, and that my people may be taught more perfectly, and have experience, and know more perfectly concerning their duty, and the things which I require at their hands.
11 And this cannot be brought to pass until mine elders are endowed with power from on high.
Lemmie wrote:Do you Mormons really imagine that Eve brought forth alone the billions and billions who have come to this earth?
Do you really imagine the billions and billions in your scenario could have been "brought forth alone" without Eve?
Come on, NightLion. I'm a human being just like you. This gender divide you postulate is insulting.
grindael wrote:
The documents tell the tale. Jo KNEW that he did not have a large enough force to "redeem" Zion on June 4th, and SAID SO. Yet 20 days later, he blames it all on everyone else and writes that it was not the leaders fault, and that if the Church had done.. (what?) Zion would be redeemed EVEN NOW!!! What a crock of ____. But that is the reality of it folks. Jo was full of it.
The point is that polygamy IS an eternal principle. Is that unacceptable to your humanity?
Nightlion wrote:grindael wrote:
The documents tell the tale. Jo KNEW that he did not have a large enough force to "redeem" Zion on June 4th, and SAID SO. Yet 20 days later, he blames it all on everyone else and writes that it was not the leaders fault, and that if the Church had done.. (what?) Zion would be redeemed EVEN NOW!!! What a crock of ____. But that is the reality of it folks. Jo was full of it.
It was not a matter of numbers. The Lord could NOT fight their battles because the people were not true saints. Neither could the Mormons today build up a real Zion.
It was a wake up call for the hypocrite Protestants who were so much filled with their own righteousness that they figured they were sufficiently righteous and saints already and never repented as commanded and never got the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost that makes for Zion and all saints. THIS is what needed to be proven by Zion's Camp failure, if the pretenders were ever to be awakened to their plight. But it never registered and it seems like the Restoration was more a resource to be galvanized at some later day, like tomorrow. The prophesy of being hidden in the wilderness of obscurity and then come forth applies to this.
Smith got cholera claiming that he could heal people. Funny how that never happened to the "saints" in the Bible. I know this reconstruction of history is all you can cling to, because everything you believe in is based on a fraud. You just look silly. Grow up and accept the facts, you're a fraud and so was Jo Smith and his "Zion" that you keep trying to resuscitate.This night the cholera burst forth among us, and about midnight it was manifested in its most virulent form. Our ears were saluted with cries and moanings, and lamentations on every hand; even those on guard fell to the earth with their guns in their hands, so sudden and powerful was the attack of this terrible disease. At the commencement, I attempted to lay on hands for their recovery, but I quickly learned by painful experience, that when the great Jehovah decrees destruction upon any people, and makes known His determination, man must not attempt to stay His hand. The moment I attempted to rebuke the disease I was attacked, and had I not desisted in my attempt to save the life of a brother, I would have sacrificed my own. The disease seized upon me like the talons of a hawk, and I said to the brethren: "If my work were done, you would have to put me in the ground without a coffin."
Early on the morning of the 25th, the camp was separated into small bands, and dispersed among the brethren living in the vicinity; and I wrote and sent by express, to "Messrs. Thornton, Doniphan, and Atchison," as follows:
RUSH CREEK, CLAY COUNTY, June 25, 1834.
GENTLEMEN—Our company of men advanced yesterday from their encampment beyond Fishing river to Rush Creek, where their tents are again pitched. But feeling disposed to adopt every pacific measure, without jeopardizing our lives, to quiet the prejudices and fears of some part of the citizens of this county, we have concluded that our [p.115] company shall be immediately dispersed, and continue so till every effort for an adjustment of differences between us and the people of Jackson has been made on our part, that would in any wise be required of us by disinterested men of republican principles.
I am respectfully, your obedient servant.
JOSEPH SMITH, JUN.
N.B.—You are now corresponding with the governor, (as I am informed); will you do us the favor to acquaint him of our efforts for a compromise. This information we want conveyed to the governor, inasmuch as his ears are stuffed with reports from Jackson, of our hostile intentions. J.S. (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 2, p.114-115)
When the cholera made its appearance, Elder John S. Carter was the first man who stepped forward to rebuke it, and upon this, was instantly seized, and became the first victim in the camp. He died about six o'clock in the afternoon; and Seth Hitchcock died in about thirty minutes afterwards. Erastus Rudd died about the same moment, although a half a mile distant. He was buried by Jesse Smith, George A. Smith and two or three others, and while burying him, Jesse Smith was attacked with the cholera. As it was impossible to obtain coffins, the brethren rolled the corpses in blankets, carried them on a horse-sled about half a mile, buried them on the bank of a small stream, which empties into Rush creek, all of which was accomplished by dark. When they had returned from the burial, the brethren [p.116] unitedly covenanted and prayed, hoping the disease would be stayed; but in vain, for while thus covenanting, Eber Wilcox died; and while some were digging the grave, others stood sentry with their fire arms, watching their enemies. (ibid)
The cholera continued its ravages for about four days, when a remedy for the purging, vomiting, and cramping, was discovered; viz., dipping the persons afflicted in cold water, or pouring it upon them, and giving them whisky thickened with flour to the consistency of starch. Whisky was the only kind of spirits that could be procured at this place. About [p.120] sixty-eight of the Saints suffered from this disease, of which number fourteen died, viz.: John S. Carter, Eber Wilcox, Seth Hitchcock, Erastus Rudd, Algernon Sidney Gilbert, Alfred Fisk, Edward Ives, Noah Johnson, Jesse B. Lawson, Robert McCord, Elial Strong, Jesse J. Smith, Warren Ingalls and Betsy Parrish.
Among the most active of those who were engaged in taking care of the sick at the camp, burying the dead, etc., were John D. Parker, John Tanner, Nathan Tanner, Joseph B. Noble, Brigham Young, Joseph Young, Heber C. Kimball, Luke S. Johnson and Eleazar Miller.
I sent Hiram Page with instructions to bring Jesse J. Smith and George A. Smith to me at all hazards to the west part of the county, having had intimations that they were sick. He found that Jesse had been severely racked with the cholera all day, George A. Smith had taken care of him for upwards of thirty hours. Dr. Frederick G. Williams decided that the cholera had left him, and he would recover if not moved. On the morning of the 28th, George A. Smith was attacked and was immediately mounted on a hard-riding horse, rode fifteen miles, and came to me.
The last days of June I spent with my old Jackson county friends, in the western part of Clay county.
On the 1st of July Jesse J. Smith died. I crossed the Missouri river, in company with a few friends, into Jackson county, to set my feet once more on the "goodly land;" and on the 2nd I went down near Liberty, and visited the brethren. A considerable number of the Camp met me at Lyman Wight's. I told them if they would humble themselves before the Lord and covenant to keep His commandments and obey my counsel, the plague should be stayed from that hour, and there should not be another case of the cholera among them. The brethren covenanted to that effect with uplifted hands, and the plague was stayed. (ibid)
Lemmie wrote:The point is that polygamy IS an eternal principle. Is that unacceptable to your humanity?
You think it is. And what I find unacceptable is your willingness to reduce me to a vessel for childbirth, and no promise of Eternal Life unless I am "given to" a man.
I am a human being, you are a human being. Your beliefs about eternity have the effect of reducing this woman writing to you right now to the status of a thing, a possession. If we were to meet, could you really look me in the eye and tell me that I am only a possession, an interchangeable thing?