Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

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_grindael
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _grindael »

I love how these spin off "prophets" simply make it up as they go along and totally disregard what Joseph Smith taught.

You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves; to be kings and priests to God the same as all Gods have done; by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as doth those who sit enthroned in everlasting power; and I want you to know that God in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me; it is the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourner, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child or dear relative, to know, that although the earthly tabernacle shall be dissolved, that they shall rise in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? to inherit the same glory, THE SAME POWER and the same exaltation, UNTIL YOU ASCEND THE THRONE OF ETERNAL POWER the same as those who are gone before. What did Jesus do? why I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle... (Smith, April 7, 1844)


This is plain beyond disputation, the same thing Lorenzo Snow taught but to the wanna bee "prophet", who has to have SOMETHING to get their panties in a bunch about, they simply ignore it. Men become AS GOD IS. That is what Smith taught. All the silly posturing by wanna bee "prophets" isn't going to change that.
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_Quasimodo
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Quasimodo »

grindael wrote:I love how these spin off "prophets" simply make it up as they go along and totally disregard what Joseph Smith taught.

You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves; to be kings and priests to God the same as all Gods have done; by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as doth those who sit enthroned in everlasting power; and I want you to know that God in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me; it is the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourner, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child or dear relative, to know, that although the earthly tabernacle shall be dissolved, that they shall rise in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? to inherit the same glory, THE SAME POWER and the same exaltation, UNTIL YOU ASCEND THE THRONE OF ETERNAL POWER the same as those who are gone before. What did Jesus do? why I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle... (Smith, April 7, 1844)


This is plain beyond disputation, the same thing Lorenzo Snow taught but to the wanna bee "prophet", who has to have SOMETHING to get their panties in a bunch about, they simply ignore it. Men become AS GOD IS. That is what Smith taught. All the silly posturing by wanna bee "prophets" isn't going to change that.

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_JLHPROF
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _JLHPROF »

RockSlider wrote:NL, you are a stock holder, correct?

How about you jlhprof?

http://kutv.com/news/local/the-dream-mi ... re-in-utah


Nope. Some of the doctrinal principles that led to the "mine" were valid, but the mine was not.
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
_JLHPROF
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _JLHPROF »

grindael wrote:I love how these spin off "prophets" simply make it up as they go along and totally disregard what Joseph Smith taught.

This is plain beyond disputation, the same thing Lorenzo Snow taught but to the wanna bee "prophet", who has to have SOMETHING to get their panties in a bunch about, they simply ignore it. Men become AS GOD IS. That is what Smith taught. All the silly posturing by wanna bee "prophets" isn't going to change that.


Hey look! You and I can agree occasionally. :lol:
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
_Nightlion
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Nightlion »

JLHPROF wrote:
grindael wrote:I love how these spin off "prophets" simply make it up as they go along and totally disregard what Joseph Smith taught.

This is plain beyond disputation, the same thing Lorenzo Snow taught but to the wanna bee "prophet", who has to have SOMETHING to get their panties in a bunch about, they simply ignore it. Men become AS GOD IS. That is what Smith taught. All the silly posturing by wanna bee "prophets" isn't going to change that.


Hey look! You and I can agree occasionally. :lol:


You are both unseasoned dolts having no comprehension of scripture.

D&C 132
... and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.


gods because they have no end
gods because they continue (the seeds)
gods because they have all power and the angels are subject to them. (not the elements just angels)

THINK a second: What are men doing in exaltation?......The continuation of the SEEDS.

What is Jesus doing to follow the Father?.....the atonement.

These are not the same eternal rounds. God is God from all eternity. You are not god now and therefore cannot ever be God from all eternity. You have both father and mother. God is without father and without mother having neither beginning of days nor end of years.

You resist to have your understanding expanded and enlightened by adherence to darkness, never receiving the light of the gospel to begin with.
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https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
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_canpakes
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _canpakes »

Nightlion wrote:
THINK a second: What are men doing in exaltation?......The continuation of the SEEDS.


Hmm. Spirit seeds.

This preoccupation with physical reproduction and 'seed', to be shot about in the afterlife in the pursuit of spirit creation (assemblage?), is quite peculiar.
_Symmachus
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _Symmachus »

An interesting post (and on the topic of celestial sex, before I get to my response, I only want to ask believers: will all sex have to be reproductive in nature in the celestial kingdom, or will there be recreational sex and all that it entails? Even if it's purely reproductive, I find the thought of god-sex repulsive. Sex is animalistic, and a heaven where Elohim is damned mother goddess like a chimpanzee on meth just doesn't do it for me intellectually. Eternity is long time and I can imagine that it would get old fast).

I'm not sure I buy the equation between forced gang rape in a war zone and Mormon polygamy, though I do think there is a powerful element of control and coercion at the root of Joseph Smith's marriage system. It also gave him control over men's sexuality, not only women's. And one thing I want to point out is how this did work collectively: most Mormon men were not polygamists (I have seen different figures but none are very large), yet all Mormons have had to answer for it since. I'm not sure even apologizing for it (and who would the Church apologize to?) would change the public perception. Added to the fact that there was a kind of negative or reverse polygamy (can't come up with a good term for what I mean): if the church controlled access to women, it also controlled which men could access those women. In other words, it's not only that the Mormon polygamous system granted sexual access to women, it also denied that access to men.

None of my ancestors were polygamists, because they were low-class coal miners who had nothing to offer the hierarchy but their own bodies' labor. Once they got here in the 1870s, they were sent to work for the Church's burgeoning mining outfits in central Utah, then later the companies that came in at the end of the century. But their lives were controlled by polygamists. I have no family stories, because these were pious people who wouldn't pass down criticism, but the system that siphoned off marriageable women to older, already- and many-married men must have had an effect in those small communities. Obviously, they did have families, because I am a descendant, but one thing I noticed when I studied my family history was how small those families were. I don't think I saw a generation with more than three children, and the direct line I come from had a series of one-child families up to my grandfather, who was the first to have a big family (six kids, but not polygamously). I also noticed that the women were older at the time of marriage (which may be why there were fewer children produced by those marriages). In reading this post now and thinking about it, I wonder whether there is something meaningful behind that: were these women passed over in their youth by the polygamists for some reason (not that that reason is far to find)? Fewer potential spouses meant fewer chances to start a family early, which meant fewer children when marriage did come, which meant more dependence on the Church because they controlled marriage, or at least they could set the conditions for marriage. It also meant fewer opportunities for social advancement (and Brigham Young had much to say about unmarried men as social pariahs). Polygamy bound together the most committed believers, so to advance socially through marriage, men had to be even more devoted to the Church, but I suspect it wasn't easy to marry into those families as a male, though it might be easy for a woman to be married into them. So I think there was a class element to this, so that polygamous marriage was served as a restrictive mechanism to enforce social and economic distinctions. At least, it had that effect.

A sort of eugenics and social Darwinism had a lot of currency then, and Brigham married racism to Mormon theology during this time, so I wonder what polygamy's relationship to all of that was. Was polygamy used as a crude form of eugenics to keep certain populations, say certain kinds of immigrant groups, from joining the more "desirable" parts of the Church—the leading families?

Obviously this is speculative, but if I'm right, they should at least apologize to Carbon County.
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_JLHPROF
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _JLHPROF »

Nightlion wrote:You are both unseasoned dolts having no comprehension of scripture.


Love the arrogance here.
Brigham knew better.
- "I took the books and laid them down one by one beginning with the Bible, and said, "there lies the Bible, there the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, the revelations God has given through Joseph for the salvation of the people in the 19th Century, yet I would not give the ashes of a rye straw for these three books so far as they are efficacious for the salvation of any man, that lives without the living oracles of God."

gods because they have no end
gods because they continue (the seeds)
gods because they have all power and the angels are subject to them. (not the elements just angels)

THINK a second: What are men doing in exaltation?......The continuation of the SEEDS.
What is Jesus doing to follow the Father?.....the atonement.

These are not the same eternal rounds. God is God from all eternity. You are not god now and therefore cannot ever be God from all eternity. You have both father and mother. God is without father and without mother having neither beginning of days nor end of years.
You resist to have your understanding expanded and enlightened by adherence to darkness, never receiving the light of the gospel to begin with.


Progression is eternal.
We have no idea what the future eternities will allow us to progress to.
I have my own beliefs (based on Brigham's teachings primarily). The Church has theirs. Apparently you have yours.
But to say we will be a "god" but Christ will be a "God" is simply wishful thinking and a holdover from old sectarian beliefs that Mormonism never was able to get rid of.

We are taught that Christ will receive ALL that the Father has and as joint-heirs we will receive ALL that Christ has.
What part of ALL is confusing you?
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
_grindael
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Re: Polygamy, Shared Guilt, Control

Post by _grindael »

In the light of what Smith taught, this sentence is freaking moronic:

God is God from all eternity.


Wrong. Smith taught EXPLICITLY:

¶ First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God, who holds this world in its orbit, and upholds all things by his power; if you were to see him to-day, you would see him in all the person, image and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God; Adam received instruction, walked talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, “As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power”—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you—namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one—from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die anymore; but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said.


Some might forget that Jo just didn't stop there, he was teaching on this after April, 1844. Here is what he said that completely contradicts what our resident false "prophet" teaches,

Joseph Smith wrote:I learned it by translating the papyrus now in my house---I learned a test. concerning Abraham & he reasoned concerng. the God of Heaven-- in order to do that sd. he--suppose we have two facts that supposes that anotr. fact may exist two men on the earth--one wiser than the other-- wod. show that another who is wiser than the wisest may exist-- intelligences exist one above anotr. that there is no end to it-- if Abra. reasoned thus--if J. C. was the Son of God & John discd. that God the Far. [father] of J. C. had a far.[father] you may suppose that he had a Far. also---where was ther ever a Son witht. a Far.---where ever did tree or any thing spring into existence witht. a progenitor-- & every thing comes in this way--Paul says that which is Earthyly is in likeness of that which is Heavenly-- hence if J. had a Far. can we not believe that he had a Fa.r also--I despise the idea of being scared to death--I want you all to pay particr. attent. J. sd. as the Far. wrought precisely in the same way as his Far. had done bef-- as the Far. had done bef--he laid down his life & took it up same as his Far. had done before--he did as he was sent to lay down his life & take it up again & was then committed unto him the keys &c I know it is good reasoning--


Joseph Smith wrote:...as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again & the Scripture Say those who will obey the commandments shall be heirs of god & Joint heirs with of Jesus Christ WE then also took bodies to lay them down, to take them up again ~Jo Smith, June 16, 1844, months AFTER the King Follett Discourse. https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-jose ... -june-18-0


This is exactly what Jo meant, that we become GODS the same as all the other GODS before us. We do it by imitating what they did, which was be born, die and be resurrected. Lay down our lives and take them up again. Of course I’ve repeated this three times now and still can’t penetrate the bubble of denial you live in.

“What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory. And so Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before.”


Smith claims that the Son had the same power as the Father, to lay down his life and take it up again, this is RESURRECTION, not the atonement. We all have the same POWER according to Smith. The continuation of the seeds is simply having spiritual children. (Polygamy = more wives = more spiritual children = the continuation of the SEEDS). None of this is difficult to comprehend, except I guess if you are a wanna bee "prophet" who had to find some bone to pick with those you are jealous of.

You are a poser, Nightlion. You have no idea what Smith was teaching. You have it all wrong. Again, you wanna bee "prophets" have to have SOMETHING to condemn the other "prophets" with, but you can't even understand what Smith was teaching. You are simply a buffoon (like so many others) who thinks that God is speaking through you. Well, he isn't. Ever spouting BS and never able to come to a knowledge of what Smith taught.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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