We have the smoothest liars in the world - B. Young

[_grindael]

So the priesthood ban..... Of God or not?

Since it is perfectly fine for Mormons to outright lie to anyone, (According to JLH) how could you ever know if they will ever truthfully answer your questions? What is the point in having discussions with them, if all they will do is lie?

[_JLHPROF]

So the priesthood ban..... Of God or not?

Since it is perfectly fine for Mormons to outright lie to anyone, (According to JLH) how could you ever know if they will ever truthfully answer your questions? What is the point in having discussions with them, if all they will do is lie?

Not quite what I said, but you are welcome to present it that way.
There is a difference between full open honesty and holding back truth when asked.
Not everything should be told honestly at all times.

[_grindael]

Not everything should be told honestly at all times.

That means you can lie whenever you want, so no, I did not misconstrue what you said. You just said it again here, very clearly. And it is a classic case of diversion to present this as not telling the whole truth. What Mormon "authorities" do is LIE. Is it ok to LIE? They said no, not under any circumstances, even holding back the truth. (Although they seem to make an exception when it comes to church history) You said yes. But that is NOT what they teach investigators about being honest. It is a LIE to deceive, and not telling things honestly at all times is LYING. What you are advocating totally contradicts this:

Truth or untruth is not always altogether a matter of literal language, but often of implication, of inflection, of innuendo, of subtle suggestion. A clever person intent on being untruthful can give a false impression, even when his literal words can little be called into question.

Jo Smith's Abraham was INTENT on being untruthful (That Sarah was NOT his wife), only his sister, so that was a LIE. And Jo claimed that God was the one who told Abraham to do it.

[_I have a question]

"Honesty"

Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... y?lang=eng

[_JLHPROF]

What Mormon "authorities" do is LIE. Is it ok to LIE? They said no, not under any circumstances, even holding back the truth. (Although they seem to make an exception when it comes to church history)

"Honesty"

Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

You are both saying the Church "lies" when they withhold information or tell partial truth. I am agreeing with you.
You say this goes against basic Church teachings. I am agreeing with you and explaining one possible way that is justified using scriptural examples as principles. You are free to reject that justification in favor of assuming the worst possible motivations.

Considering you both believe all of Mormonism is a lie (fraud) I'm not sure why you focus on any particulars lies you encounter. Most people don't waste time on any particular lies once they've labeled someone a liar. Kind of like bailing water on the Titanic.

[_SteelHead]

Priesthood ban, of God or not?

[Guest]

What Mormon "authorities" do is LIE. Is it ok to LIE? They said no, not under any circumstances, even holding back the truth. (Although they seem to make an exception when it comes to church history)

"Honesty"

Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

You are both saying the Church "lies" when they withhold information or tell partial truth. I am agreeing with you.
You say this goes against basic Church teachings. I am agreeing with you and explaining one possible way that is justified using scriptural examples as principles. You are free to reject that justification in favor of assuming the worst possible motivations.

Actually, I'm pointing out what the Church specifies is the standard for "Honesty" so that when people read this thread they can see for themselves the double standard being applied by an organization supposedly led by direct communication from Christ.

Considering you both believe all of Mormonism is a lie (fraud) I'm not sure why you focus on any particulars lies you encounter. Most people don't waste time on any particular lies once they've labeled someone a liar. Kind of like bailing water on the Titanic.

Would you not bail water on a ship you knew to be sinking but upon which your family and friends and others were still standing?

[_JLHPROF]

Priesthood ban, of God or not?

Of God.

[_SteelHead]

And the new essay that says the contrary on lds.org?

[_I have a question]

And the new essay that says the contrary on lds.org?

For the record:

Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.

https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the ... g&old=true

Of course, that disavows the 1949 FP statement and also the Book of Mormon.

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/2-ne/5?lang=eng

Poster 'moinmoin' (a TBM and Bishop) believes the essay "Race and the Priesthood" to be a piece of disingenuous spin to distract outsiders from the realisation that Mormonism still sees people with a black skin as being cursed.