Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

[_Sanctorian]

This is a weird thread. I can't figure out how any man (or woman) can have sex with someone that doesn't coherently consent without it being considered rape. If alcohol is involved and the person is inebriated to almost blackout, they are not in any position to make good judgment calls with regards to consent. The easy answer is wait till morning and ask when sober. Of course, I'm a nice guy and don't stick my dick in places just because there's a hole.

[_Jersey Girl]

This is a weird thread. I can't figure out how any man (or woman) can have sex with someone that doesn't coherently consent without it being considered rape. If alcohol is involved and the person is inebriated to almost blackout, they are not in any position to make good judgment calls with regards to consent. The easy answer is wait till morning and ask when sober. Of course, I'm a nice guy and don't stick my dick in places just because there's a hole.

If Bill Cosby may be used as an acceptable example, it's rape.

[_DoubtingThomas]

If alcohol is involved and the person is inebriated to almost blackout, they are not in any position to make good judgment calls with regards to consent:

So if a drunk person can't make a good judgement, why judge the drunk drivers? Are drunk drivers responsible for their actions? Isn't it like a double standard? why not?

According to medicaldaily, "Dr. Ausim Azizi, a chair of neurology at Temple University School of Medicine, blacking out doesn’t necessarily involve loss of consciousness at all. Instead, black outs have more in common with a condition we’re much less inclined to throw around. And that is amnesia.“Alcoholic black-out is different from loss of consciousness,” says Azizi. “Technically, a drunk individual may lose or may not lose consciousness for a brief time, but they do not form event memories for long periods of time during inebriation.”"
http://www.medicaldaily.com/heres-what- ... ion-270118

[_Sanctorian]

If alcohol is involved and the person is inebriated to almost blackout, they are not in any position to make good judgment calls with regards to consent:

So if a drunk person can't make a good judgement, why judge the drunk drivers? Are drunk drivers responsible for their actions? Isn't it like a double standard? why not?

Drunk driving is a hazard to everyone on the road which is precisely why it's a crime. The drunk driver allowed the alcohol to impare their judgement otherwise they wouldn't have been behind the wheel. We hold them responsible to not only protect people, but to deter the behavior from society as a whole. Most responsible people who know they will be drinking arrange transportation prior to inebriation because they know their judgement will be impared at some future point. Its the act of being sober, drinking on your own free will, and not planning beforehand how you will transport your drunk ass that makes society hold those in DUI responsible.

I fail to see how that's a double standard.

According to webmd, "Blackouts are not the same as passing out. Passing out occurs when you lose consciousness. You don't pass out when you have a drug or alcohol blackout. In a blackout, you lose short-term memories. A blackout is a type of amnesia. During a blackout, you may function normally. People around you may not notice anything different about your behavior. You might do the things you normally do, such as eat dinner, wash dishes, or watch television. But later you have no memory of doing them."
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addi ... c-overview

As a dude, it seems highly irresponsible to engage in any sex that the woman isn't clearly consenting. I'm married with three kids and have never forced sex on my wife. If she tells me no and I'm just dying to get my rocks off, I'll go rub one out and ask again later. No big deal.

Additionally, sex should be enjoyable for both parties. If she's not into it and you have to force the issue, maybe you should work on your skillzzz!

[_DoubtingThomas]

Most responsible people who know they will be drinking arrange transportation prior to inebriation because they know their judgement will be impared at some future point. Its the act of being sober, drinking on your own free will, and not planning beforehand how you will transport your drunk ass that makes society hold those in DUI responsible.

and most responsible people don't get very drunk, it is illegal to get intoxicated in public places such as bars.
So what if your designated driver gets drunk too? What about all the stupids things drunk people do? Such as getting violent for example, does that mean they are not responsible for their actions?

As a dude, it seems highly irresponsible to engage in any sex that the woman isn't clearly consenting.

If a drunk woman can do other things, she can also consent to sex. Say she smashes a bottle of wine in someone's head, would alcohol excuse her violent action?

Bytheway, some women report that alcohol increases sexual arousal and desire. There are ugly guys out-there (not me) that need alcohol for a woman to find them attractive. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a girlfriend or a wife.

[_Lemmie]

As a dude, it seems highly irresponsible to engage in any sex that the woman isn't clearly consenting.

If a drunk woman can do other things, she can also consent to sex.

This really worries me. Sanctorian was making a point about responsible behavior in a situation where consent is questionable. You seem intent on justifying irresponsible behavior where consent is questionable.

Even if you could do it without being charged with rape, would you really consider it appropriate to take advantage of someone due to a technicality in the definition of consent? When you posted as theSkepticChristian on MADD (which was brought up in a thread here), it was assumed you were a teenager due to conversations like this...

[_Sanctorian]

and most responsible people don't get very drunk, it is illegal to get intoxicated in public places such as bars.
So what if your designated driver gets drunk too? What about all the stupids things drunk people do? Such as getting violent for example, does that mean they are not responsible for their actions?

You're arguing for something for which society has already created laws. Laws are nothing more than what society deems acceptable/not acceptable. If your Designated Driver is drunk, he's at fault, not you. If you get in a fight, that's assault regardless if you are drunk or not.

As a dude, it seems highly irresponsible to engage in any sex that the woman isn't clearly consenting.

If a drunk woman can do other things, she can also consent to sex. Say she smashes a bottle of wine in someone's head, would alcohol excuse her violent action?

Yep, but then again, she can also accuse you of rape. It's up to the fact finders to determine if a crime happened or not which is precisely why I said it would be irresponsible to engage in sex where a woman isn't CLEARLY consenting. Sorry dude, that's the game we play in. Sucks to be a dude sometimes. Deal with it.

Bytheway, some women report that alcohol increases sexual arousal and desire. There are ugly guys out-there (not me) that need alcohol for a woman to find them attractive. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a girlfriend or a wife.

Ugliness is not an excuse for poor behavior. If you have to get a woman drunk to have sex with you, you're probably doing it wrong.

[_DoubtingThomas]

Sorry dude, that's the game we play in. Sucks to be a dude sometimes. Deal with it.

Fortunately some courts do have some common sense, and find them innocent.
Drunk adults are responsible for their actions, you disagree?

Ugliness is not an excuse for poor behavior. If you have to get a woman drunk to have sex with you, you're probably doing it wrong

You are assuming it is poor behavior. So if a drunk woman smashes a bottle of wine in someone's head, would alcohol excuse her violent action? because you said drunk people can't make "good judgement"

[_DoubtingThomas]

There are guys out-there with mental disabilities. You are assuming all guys are as talented and attractive as you.

[_Sanctorian]

Ugliness is not an excuse for poor behavior. If you have to get a woman drunk to have sex with you, you're probably doing it wrong

You are assuming it is poor behavior. So if a drunk woman smashes a bottle of wine in someone's head, would alcohol excuse her violent action? because you said drunk people can't make "good judgement"

Good judgement and accountability are two very different things. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

How about this DT, try to imagine being a woman for five seconds. Do you think you'd like men forcing their dick on you all the time? I didn't think so.

Rape is a devastating experience. Not sure why you are trying to blur that line. Be nice and respectful and sex will come your way.