Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

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_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:Does that clear up my response?


Yes, and we agree.

Res Ipsa wrote:(by the way, the Casinos don't just give the stuff away. You have to be spending at certain thresholds to be comped anything.)


There is at least one Casino that gives free alcohol, I read it on a news article. Some drunks ruin their life in just one night. It does feel Casinos do take advantage, especially if they give you more and more alcohol.

Res Ipsa wrote:Why do you think this should be a unilateral decision on your part? If your spouse is in a wheelchair, why doesn't she get a say? Why can't you explain to your spouse that you want to change the terms of your marriage and give her the choice as to whether to agree to the changes or not. Why not give her the chance to say: I would rather not be your wife under those circumstances.


Like you said, "The tough thing about different cases is that they are, well, different. So why would you expect the same standard to apply the same way to different cases? "

Most spouses would never accept a "change of terms", or an open marriage. To most LDS “Sexual sin . . . stands, in its enormity, next to murder"

Like I said affairs are not a good thing, but some people report that affairs save their marriage. Affairs are better than abandoning your spouse for someone else. Dr. Darrel Ray argues that affairs as a last resort are understandable, an affair can help your marriage.

Tator wrote: I hope the best for you. And I am a grandpa now many times over. G'luck


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_cinepro
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _cinepro »

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if someone already pointed this out, but in the analogy to drunk driving, the person committing the rape is like the drunk driver, and the person being raped is like the person getting hit by the drunk driver.

So even if a pedestrian is drunk, a drunk driver who hits them is still guilty of a crime.

Also, the issue of rape gets difficult because there is such a thing as consensual sex. But there really isn't anything called "consensual getting hit by a car", so drunk driving is probably a doubly bad analogy.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _Res Ipsa »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
There is at least one Casino that gives free alcohol, I read it on a news article. Some drunks ruin their life in just one night. It does feel Casinos do take advantage, especially if they give you more and more alcohol.


Think about it. If a Casino just gave away free drinks, why would anyone gamble there? Why not just go in and drink for free? I suspect either the article was factually wrong, factually incomplete, or you misunderstood. Casinos will give you all kinds of stuff, depending on how much you are betting. It's called being "comped," and there are tons of internet articles you can find that discuss the practice. Lots of Casinos today make the comping rules explicit by having "players clubs" you can join. The more you gamble, the more points you earn. The more points, the more free goodies.

Res Ipsa wrote:Why do you think this should be a unilateral decision on your part? If your spouse is in a wheelchair, why doesn't she get a say? Why can't you explain to your spouse that you want to change the terms of your marriage and give her the choice as to whether to agree to the changes or not. Why not give her the chance to say: I would rather not be your wife under those circumstances.


DoubtingThomas wrote:Like you said, "The tough thing about different cases is that they are, well, different. So why would you expect the same standard to apply the same way to different cases? "

Most spouses would never accept a "change of terms", or an open marriage. To most LDS “Sexual sin . . . stands, in its enormity, next to murder"


What you quoted from me is not a get out of jail free card. It doesn't mean you never have to justify any decision. It means that each case needs to be examined on its own merits. So let's drill down a little deeper into this example.

In most marriages, the partners agree as part of the marriage relationship to not have any other sexual partners. My wife and I have that agreement as part of our marriage. Suppose my wife and I have a great sexual relationship. But a really attractive woman at work makes a pass at me and I decide to have a sexual relationship with her. I've unilaterally changed the terms of our marriage. And, under those facts, I think we would agree that changing those terms unilaterally without disclosing the change would be immoral.

Take the same example, and instead of having the affair, I tell my wife I want to have sex with the hot woman at work. If she says OK, then she's agreed to change the agreement. And I think you and I would agree that having sex with the other woman under those conditions would not be immoral.

So, what makes one example moral and the other not? We could say, for example, something like "it's immoral to unilaterally change an agreement without the consent of the other person." We could drill down deeper to something like: it's moral to treat people the way I want to be treated. I wouldn't want someone to break an agreement and hide it from me. It's moral for me to treat others that way, too. Whatever it is, we can think through why we feel the same conduct (sex with the other woman) would be moral in one case and immoral in another.

Now, let's take the case of my wife being in an accident that leaves her incapable of satisfying me sexually. What is it about those specific facts that would justify changing the terms of the agreement without getting my wife's consent? If I'm reading you correctly, it's "the other person wouldn't want to continue with the agreement." But that's true any time you make an agreement. If you don't perform your part of the agreement, it's very unlikely that other person won't perform. In other words, you'd be saying something like "It's moral to unilaterally change the terms of the deal if you want to and if the other person is unlikely to accept the change." But do you think that's really a moral way to treat fellow humans? Would you think it moral if the tables were turned?

That, I think, is the kind of process you have to go through to develop a moral code. You can develop general standards (or even specific rules) while, at the same time, knowing those rules might break down in a specific case. Then you find one of those cases, you think through it as best you can to figure out whether the case is really different.

DoubtingThomas wrote:Like I said affairs are not a good thing, but some people report that affairs save their marriage. Affairs are better than abandoning your spouse for someone else. Dr. Darrel Ray argues that affairs as a last resort are understandable, an affair can help your marriage.


I've read lots of stories where the death of a child has had the effect of bringing the parents close together. However, no sane person would recommend killing your child in order to get closer to your spouse. There is also a world of difference between observing that some people report that their marriages were better after an affair and advocating an affair as a means to improve a marriage (even as a "last resort") I'd be shocked if the good doctor had ever said to a client "Your marriage sucks. I suggest you have an affair to improve it."
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _Res Ipsa »

cinepro wrote:Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if someone already pointed this out, but in the analogy to drunk driving, the person committing the rape is like the drunk driver, and the person being raped is like the person getting hit by the drunk driver.

So even if a pedestrian is drunk, a drunk driver who hits them is still guilty of a crime.

Also, the issue of rape gets difficult because there is such a thing as consensual sex. But there really isn't anything called "consensual getting hit by a car", so drunk driving is probably a doubly bad analogy.


Yeah, we touched on that. I think drunk driving is a bad analogy for the reason you stated. You need an analogy where the drunk person is harmed and gets less legal protection simply because he's drunk.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

cinepro wrote:Haven't read the whole thread


My point was that drunks can also make decisions, you disagree?
It is legal to get drunk, nothing wrong with getting drunk right?
Drunks are not brainless robots, unless they are so drunk they can't make a decision.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote: Casinos will give you all kinds of stuff, depending on how much you are betting. It's called being "comped," and there are tons of internet articles you can find that discuss the practice. Lots of Casinos today make the comping rules explicit by having "players clubs" you can join. The more you gamble, the more points you earn. The more points, the more free goodies.


I can't find the article, but a book says, "Casinos provide free alcoholic drinks to gamblers at the slot machines or game tables. People gambling under the influence of alcohol have poor judgement and lose their money faster."

Richard Daynard, a law professor at Northeastern University and the president of the Public Health Advocacy Institute, explained at the group’s forum on casino gambling in the fall of 2014, “The business plan for casinos is not based on the occasional gambler. The business plan for casinos is based on the addicted gambler.”

Res Ipsa wrote:Now, let's take the case of my wife being in an accident that leaves her incapable of satisfying me sexually. What is it about those specific facts that would justify changing the terms of the agreement without getting my wife's consent? If I'm reading you correctly, it's "the other person wouldn't want to continue with the agreement." But that's true any time you make an agreement. If you don't perform your part of the agreement, it's very unlikely that other person won't perform. In other words, you'd be saying something like "It's moral to unilaterally change the terms of the deal if you want to and if the other person is unlikely to accept the change." But do you think that's really a moral way to treat fellow humans? Would you think it moral if the tables were turned?


Dr. Darrel Ray discusses affairs here
https://secularsexuality.dogmadebate.co ... els-story/

He argues that when we get married we don't really understand our agreement. We humans didn't evolve for lifelong monogamy.

What happens if you get married because of your religion, or because some "spiritual revelation" told you to marry someone? and what happens when you find out your "spiritual revelation" was just a hallucination?

I know dishonesty is immoral, but sometimes under some circumstances it is better than the truth. I still think affairs are better than abandoning your spouse. You disagree?
Last edited by Guest on Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Lemmie
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _Lemmie »

I still think affairs are better than abandoning your spouse.

Res Ipsa is trying to point out to you that complex situations are not captured in the simplified expression:

A (with no proof) looks better than B, therefore why not A.

Why would there be only two extreme options in any of these complicated situations under discussion?
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Lemmie wrote:Why would there be only two extreme options in any of these complicated situations under discussion?


If I am wrong please tell me what the third option is?

Opponents to medical marijuana say there are plenty of other options, but never read the case of Clayton Holton.

Dr. Ray is not the only one that believes affairs can help some marriages, a world-renowned therapist, Dr. Mira Kirshenbaum also agrees.

https://www.amazon.com/When-Good-People ... 0312563442
Last edited by Guest on Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Lemmie
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _Lemmie »

Doubting Thomas wrote:I can't find the article, but a book says, "Casinos provide free alcoholic drinks to gamblers at the slot machines or game tables. People gambling under the influence of alcohol have poor judgement and lose their money faster."

Come on DT. Do better research. Your quote comes from a non-attributed, reference-free blog entry titled: Psychological Aspects of Gambling Addiction, which is posted at a website called:
_____Scientific Psychic_____
the tagline under the website title reads:
"Expand your mind, improve your body, have fun."
http://www.scientificpsychic.com/index.html
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Question to Dehlin fans about "Rape in Mormon Culture"

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Lemmie wrote:Come on DT. Do better research. Your quote comes from a non-attributed, reference-free blog entry titled: Psychological Aspects of Gambling Addiction, which is posted at a website called


It comes from a book called The Savvy Gambler by Abder-Rahim Biad. I thought the statement was uncontroversial. Alcohol makes you keep gambling for more and more, Casinos need alcohol.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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