Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

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_grindael
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Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

Post by _grindael »

Philadelphia, A^u^gust, 17, ^or (18)th^ 1843,

President. Smith,

Dear Br, in the Lord, | for the first time in the provdece of the Lord, | I take my pen, that I may communicate to you, some| things, that may be of some benifit to you, in time | and in Eternity,, I pray the Lord that these Lines may | reach you, & find you and all yours, in a state of | prosperity, I have ben trying to do rite ever sence| I parted with you, I have got a long finely with ^the^ | Church in this City, so fare we have had peace| in hear in our mitsts & no dificulty whatever, the | Church is increacing,,, 22 New members have joind | cinse, I came hear, you may look for a goodly number | to come to Nauvoo this fall, ,!! Br Horris [Horace] Whitney | staid with me about ,2, weeks,, he then went into | Jersey with one of the Elders, to preach in the | Country, he, left his things with me & said that | he would be back in ,3, weeks. I have hurd that | he has gone to, CT, to see his Grand Father,!!! | Br Walmart [Smith], & family, are in Monmouth County, New Jersey, he | is preaching, Sister Caroline’s health is no better, but | if any thing it is worse than when she lef home,. | Br Walmart, [Smith] is turning the wourld upside down,, | with his, darling Religion, . . . . . --------- | & Elders, Yong [Young], Kimball, & Page, & GA Smith | left hear this afternoon for, NY, ,, Elders,, | O, Pratt & Woodruff,, left last, Monday for | Chester, Co,. they ^that is Elders Y[oung], K[imball], P[ratt]. & W[oodruff],^ staid heare near, two weeks, they | did not settle any dificulty,, for their was, none, to | settle, but they have got the Saints, to feel the impotu^nce^ | of going to Nauvoo, I think they have performed | a good work in this City,, the Saints all seam to feel | well,, they all, want to see you,, they say when | will, Br, Joseph, come, I tell them that, they | must go whare ^you^ are. & then you will tell them | what to do &c----- |

I will now, tell you sumthing about your old | Friends, in this, ^City^ in so doing, I will try to be a wise | servent and as harmeless, as a, dove,, Sister Bangor, left | the, Church, in April. and has not come back yet, She | is vary friendly, and so is the old gentleman,,, ---- | Br Pawson,, and family, would be glad to see you,, | and in fact all your old friends to numeurous to | mention,,. Sister,. C[onrad], and. her, daugh^t^ers,, they have | ben tried some what of late,, one of the Girls, | is vary much opposed th to, the doctrin of the Saints, | she will not let the old Lady & the others rest becaus | they are Mormons, She wants to rule the family, she | is not willing that any of the Saints should come to | the House,, if theair should come a Letter to the | Office,, she wants to see it., least it should come | from a Mormon, she Washington^t^ches vary close,,!! |

A few days befor the Twelve came to this City, I, | was cauled upon to visit a, family that was sumwhat | troubled in mind., !!! Sum person had given them, ^(or her)^ a, | few, words of Council,, the first cost the giver, 50, ct, | and the Last cost the Receiver, 25, ct, | March. the 11th ,, & June the 2nd Quincy,,, | again, I was cauled upon to explain certin, | mistryes &c., [polygamy] they were unable to comprehend,, | cirten items, made, known, and yet, unknown, | I confesed that it was a grate Mistery that, I, | could not interpet,, ,, altho ^I^ read vary close, | the one out of the Church had not read, | but the, Three in the Church read, and, cept [kept] | reading,, untill, two of the them, was about | to denie, the faith,,, Miss S[Susan],, & the | Mother [Elizabeth], !!!, Miss A[Ann?],, has ben the meanes of caping [keeping] | them in the Church,, and sending for, me | to explain,, after reading,, I preached, bore testim | ony,,.&c, will you answer it Miss S[usan Conrad], no I cannot | think of doing it,, you may write if you will. | so I copied from the March number a few | words thinking to write in a few days,, | but the Twelve coming,, in a day to two, my room, | has ben croded preventing me from writing &c,,.--- | last, Munday,,, Elder . O[rson]. P[ratt]. was requested, to visit,, but | could not as he had to go to Chester, Co, that Morning | I was to go to the same. House,, with him,, so, I, | went a, Lone,, I was informed that Elder [Orson] P[ratt]. was wante^d^ | to explain, &c, as it was not on, Mathematical subjects, I, | thought it might ^be difficult^ for him, to interpet it, ad and as he | was coming back to the City next week, I thought | it best to make all things shure,,, so I went to work | in the, name of the Lord,, and after using evry .. | argument that, I could,, they delivered into my | Hands, all that ^I^ wanted, March, & June, | I am now in ^(an)^ up^p^er room, I will at this moment light | my Lamp, and offer, a Sacrefice of evry thing | that I have obtained,,,, as a witness befor the| Lord,, that, I will be true to you in time & in | Eternity,, I have made the ofring the Smoke | and flame has assended,,, I obtained ^(the Lets,,,)^ on this | ^condision^ that if I got an ansor,, they or ^She^ Should | see it,, in this mater whatever you say I will do | but if you write, direct to me, if you pleas, as | this is their request,, , they all feel better | (Miss, S[usan], cried. Like ^a^ Child when these things | was made known to me) they think you canot| explain it,, if ^I^ can I will get them all to ^come^ | to Nauvoo, Miss S[usan], was sick and had Brs, | You^n^g, Kimball, lay hands on her,, they said | that she felt quite chearful,,, this ^Family^ think it | vary strang that their friend should advise one & not | all,, ,,what did he mean by sending money,, attendan^c^e | &c, and about Matrimony,, and the will of the ^Lord.,,^ | Br, K[imball], has,, taught me principle, &c, Br, Y, I found | new [knew] about the matte so I read to them, they said | It should be even as you desired, in the name of the | Lord even so Amen, I told them the care that, I, | ^had^ pursued,, & the one I was going to take, they said it was | rite and the Lord would bless me for so doing | give my love to, Br, Hyrum, I was glad to hear that he had | received the Priesthood, [polygamy] &c, Br Joseph, I have ben tried until, I, have | have allmost desired, to die, I would, have given any thing on Earth to | seen you, & talk^ed^ with you one hour,,, but I now feel well and want | to live long on the, Earth,, my health is vary poor : will you | pray your, Heavenly Father ^to^ Bless me,, with health, and the | holy spirit,, if you think best write & I will do as you | say,, I add no more but remain your freend | & Br, in the,, ^new,^ covenent,, |

Preset,, Joseph Smith, Sener, J. M Grant


If you are wondering what this is, it is a letter written by Jedediah M. Grant from Philadelphia Pennsylvania to Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. What happened is that one Lorenzo Dow Barnes was engaged to Susan Conrad, but went on a mission to England and died. She was a young women in her twenties. Barnes died at the end of December and Joseph Smith received word in April, 1843. But he wrote to Susan in March and June of 1843 to Susan that she become one of his Spiritual Wives. The family (who were split on the church) were very distraught over this, and some went to Grant. The letters (two of them) were written by William Clayton and Clayton reported that Joseph Smith “received a letter from Jedediah M. Grant containing information of Conrad’s having recd a letter &c.” Emma Smith, “heard J[oseph Smith] read it and appeared for a while to feel very jealous.’’ (Clayton Journal, Aug. 31, 1843, not in Smith's book, but in the Quinn Papers).

Grant writes that he burned the letters, that he knew about polygamy and that he knew that Hyrum had just accepted it a short time before this letter was written. There is more evidence, because Grant claims that Susan said, "no I cannot think of doing it', and "cried like a child when these things were made known to me." I don't think that Joseph was expecting this from Grant, for he read the letter with Emma present who did not take it well. This was the day that they were moving into the Mansion House. The next day Emma attended the trial of George Adams, who Joseph cleared of any wrongdoing even though he had a wife in Nauvoo and in England.

Conrad wrote to a friend Mary Woolley,

I feel tempted to write some thing but I dare not[,] if brother Kimball had passed this way I could have trusted one by him such as I would like to write but it is not so dear sister . . . I heard some things that completely twisted me round that if my life depended on my acting different I could not have done it, I guess Joseph would not think I had much Philosophy about me if he had seen me some times I never was nearer crazy in my life you will know what I mean.


Susan Conrad had met Joseph Smith before this incident.

All this is from an Article written by William V. Smith which appeared in Dialogue (Winter 2016 Issue). Susan Conrad is not mentioned by Brian Hales in his polygamy books.
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_deacon blues
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Re: Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

Post by _deacon blues »

Was Joseph Smith's letters to Susan Conrad destroyed?
_grindael
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Re: Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

Post by _grindael »

deacon blues wrote:Was Joseph Smith's letters to Susan Conrad destroyed?


Yes, Grant (above) says he did so:
I am now in an upper room, I will at this moment light my Lamp, and offer, a Sacrefice of evry thing that I have obtained,,,, as a witness befor the Lord,, that, I will be true to you in time & in Eternity,,


Notice that he says he is making a "sacrifice" as he lights his lamp of "everything I have obtained", to show that he is "true" to Joseph "in time & in Eternity".

He made it his mission to get those letters so he could burn them. It seems that Joseph never learned his lesson from a year previous, when he wrote to another young woman, Nancy Rigdon. But he wasn't counting on Emma, who made it her mission to get rid of all of Joseph's "wives", which she did within a month of hearing this letter.
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Re: Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

Post by _SPG »

When my ancestor first joined the church, perhaps in the first couple of years it history, his father was very opposed. His father had come from Germany in the 1770's and was immediately quite successful. His father threatened to disown him, even charged him with stealing a horse that he rode to meet with the Mormons.

Reading the history like this, I think I would have been anti-Mormon. It seemed really shady, and yet, Mormons are in general the best people I know.

Joseph Smith based his church on one basic quote, "They have form of Godliness but deny the power thereof."

To this day, I wonder what motivated Joseph Smith both consciously and subconsciously. Though in general the church seems to be about this mysterious power we call the priesthood, ancient religions looked at God as the creator, the mother and father, the child, the psychological cycle of death and rebirth, which really includes a lot of twisted thinking and sex.

Our greatest symbols, the Mother and Child, (Mary and Jesus) are very watered down versions of what they used to be.

It is the opinion of some, (including myself) that modern society and "power thereof" are not very compatible. What Joseph Smith did with polygamy might have indeed been divinely inspired. There is a subtle power in polygamous Mormon communities that seems lacking of others.

So I am glad that some people felt the urge to join the church. But when Missionaries come to my door now, I give my testimony of Joseph Smith and send them away.
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Re: Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

Post by _Tator »

SPG wrote, "But when Missionaries come to my door now, I give my testimony of Joseph Smith and send them away."

I would like to read your testimony of Joseph Smith if you are willing to share.
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_SPG
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Re: Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

Post by _SPG »

Tator wrote:SPG wrote, "But when Missionaries come to my door now, I give my testimony of Joseph Smith and send them away."

I would like to read your testimony of Joseph Smith if you are willing to share.



I share my testimony a lot. But it is always evolving.

Joseph Smith got involved in matters of the occult when he was young. He experimented with many different methods of Revelation. At some point he became aware that there was a book available. Using techniques that I believe he got from Swedenborg he believed he could get a book from an angel that he heard about. It took him 4 years. Using the methods taught by Swedenborg he got the book.

Because the book was essentially what was labeled a magic book it had to be translated through methods of inspiration.

Even though the angel Moroni seems to still be active today he is not quite what Mormon history portrays him as. He is an ancient guardian of the American continents. He is not exactly all loving light either. But his interest is very much in the Native American people. Joseph Smith seem to presented him an opportunity to do something. Even though I'm not entirely convinced of what that is.

I believe Joseph Smith was earnest in his teachings and efforts. I think he set something in motion that will strongly affect the American future. There is something about the way of the Native Americans that the European Americans need to learn. Eventually this land will belong to the Native Americans again or at least they will be equals.

I think Mormonism is strongly based on what the angel Moroni had in mind. I believe in life after death. But I am not sure that it is as Mormons believe that it is. I think the afterlife is a vast universe with many different cultures. I think perhaps Mormonism is more about something happening in this physical world.

There is something in the native and primitive cultures that is closer to the truth of who the gods are then perhaps with the Christians teach. There is something very primitive about the force of life and about where it came from. All this added sophistication that we Christians have added to religion may not serve the true powers of God. However I do enjoy the more sophisticated cultures. I'm just not sure how they will play out. But much of the disease that is appearing in modern culture is because of our departure from the true nature of God. We may learn to survive it or we may not. Joseph Smith was trying to restore something that was more in tune with the true powers of life. Exactly how that plays out I haven't decided.
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Re: Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

Post by _grindael »

What Joseph Smith did with polygamy might have indeed been divinely inspired. There is a subtle power in polygamous Mormon communities that seems lacking of others.


What, the exploitation of women? Are you even familiar with what polygamy was all about and how it played out in Nauvoo and Utah? Is there "subtle power" in Joseph marrying two young women, having sex with them for months, hiding it from his only legal wife and then when she found out and kicked them out of the house shaking their hands and telling them in essence to “F” off? How many times in Utah did that scenario play out? Why was Young charging ten bucks a pop for spiritual divorces? Polygamy was about power and control and always has been. If that is the power you refer to, then it is not a good thing. What Smith did was wrong on so many levels. How this can be seen as some kind of spiritual thing is simply baffling. No wonder the Mormons are now actively persecuting those who practice it, and have become the very thing they decried in the 19th century in relation to it.
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Re: Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

Post by _grindael »

I believe Joseph Smith was earnest in his teachings and efforts.


So, using loopholes to fool god is in earnest?

Again the doctrin or sealing power of Elijah is as follows: If you have power to seal on earth & in heaven then we should be crafty. The first thing you do go & seal on earth your sons & daughters unto yourself & yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory & go ahead and not go back but use a little Craftiness & seal all you can & when you get to heaven TELL YOUR FATHER that what you seal on earth should be sealed in heaven. I will walk through the gate of heaven and Claim what I seal & those that follow me & my Council. (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 2, 1841–1845, p.365, March 10, 1844, added emphasis. This quote was drastically changed when it was put into the History of the Church (without ellipsis or any notification) and is still used today in its edited form. See quote at Note 8 here https://www.LDS.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 6?lang=eng at LDS.org, Accessed November 5, 2014).


What are we to make of Joseph Smith craftily using the “sealing power” to multiply “wives” unto himself that had living husbands? Did he misuse this power?

You know that Joseph associated the word "crafty" with evil on more than one occasion? No wonder they excised part of it when they published it.
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Re: Romance, Death & Polygamy: An Interesting Letter

Post by _SPG »

grindael wrote:What, the exploitation of women? Are you even familiar with what polygamy was all about and how it played out in Nauvoo and Utah? Is there "subtle power" in Joseph marrying two young women, having sex with them for months, hiding it from his only legal wife and then when she found out and kicked them out of the house shaking their hands and telling them in essence to ____ off? How many times in Utah did that scenario play out? Why was Young charging ten bucks a pop for spiritual divorces? Polygamy was about power and control and always has been. If that is the power you refer to, then it is not a good thing. What Smith did was wrong on so many levels. How this can be seen as some kind of spiritual thing is simply baffling. No wonder the Mormons are now actively persecuting those who practice it, and have become the very thing they decried in the 19th century in relation to it.


LOL, the exploitation of women? Have you looked at the world, at nature? Jesus, our savior was born to a virgin girl, by a mysterious God while she was engaged to be married at the old age of 13. Our very existence has been at the expensive the female. But, polygamous women and wild west harlots were some of first women to vote in the US.

I am aware of what happened with polygamy and how it played out. I have researched polygamy extensively. I had about 75 siblings, and 15 moms. My father, now passed, probably has upwards of 10,000 descendants. But the power I was referring to is mostly about the feminine power. I was raised by 15+ moms and really didn't see dad much. While there are ups and downs with that, my family members are happy as most people I know. Sure we have issues, but the bonds both relatively forgiving and forever binding. If just my family got together and decided to achieve something, we could do much, without asking the neighbors for help. My family carries a certain "mission" that is basically part of the family name.

Yes, there is a power that comes with it. And as for exploitation. . . . those that live in glasshouses. . . . .

Like, in my town, we say things like "mother's are beautiful." And to be beautiful, a woman sorts of aims at being a good mom. In American culture, we say, "big breasts and being skinny are beautiful." So to be beautiful, women starve themselves, cuts up their bodies and stick foreign objects in them, etc. I sort of ride the fence, and live in both worlds. But mothers are beautiful. Their smiles, laughter, hugs, food, acceptance, etc, wins my loyalty faster than the standards of modern America.
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