How Logic Killed Satan

[Guest]

While listening to one of Bill Reel's Mormon Discussion podcasts...Bill mentioned the idiocy of a belief in Satan (my characterization) and commented that if a Satan figure actually existed he would have to be among the most stupid creatures in God's creations or something to that effect. That if he existed and If he was actually intent on destroying God's "Great and Super Amazing Plan of Mormon Happiness" ...all Satan would have to do is refuse to participate. Just tell God to “F” off, "I'm not going to be micro-managed by you...your plan requires opposition...and I'm not going to oppose anything or play along...so good luck with that opposition thing that your plan requires God....I'm just going to sit back and do nothing". If Satan had told God this...God's entire plan would fall apart.

The absolute beauty of this reality is that it exposes the Mormon Belief in Satan for all of its obvious flaws and the silliness of it all. If Satan existed (he doesn't) all he would have to do to destroy Gods work is instead of tempting humanity...by putting evil thoughts in their minds to sin...would be to do nothing. Sip Margareta's all day on some remote beach. By refusing to participate, Satan would be throwing a wrench into God's entire plan. It would all fall apart. This is how weak God's plan really is...and because it is so dependent on a Satan who agrees to oppose god for it to work...all Satan needs to do to destroy gods plan is to refuse to participate.

Logic Killed the reality of Satan...and pretty much the entire notion of a Mormon God too for that matter...its all so silly

[_Fence Sitter]

The whole concept of the Pre-existance in Mormon theology really does not make sense however one looks at it. Here is a post I wrote about it a few years back in this similar thread.

Assuming, for the sake of argument that in LDS theology Satan is a necessary part of God’s overall plan and that plan would fall apart if he did not exist. (No pre-mortal war in heaven, no alternate choice which we, the good guys were smart enough to accept, no evil snake in the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam & Eve into the fall, and so on.) It might be interesting to actually consider the nature of Satan himself as viewed through the Mormon lens.

Would it be fair to place him in the pre-existence at or near the level of Jesus? I think so. So, in the beginning, there is this intelligence who is Satan and he is basically made of the same stuff everyone else is, including God and Jesus and like Jesus and God he is one of the more intelligent intelligences (what ever that means). God somehow already has or creates his own body (spiritually and physically) and then through the undefined process of of spiritual procreation starts giving people like Satan and Jesus their own spiritual body along with a host of other people. (Maybe there’s a reason people utter “OH MY GOD!!!!!” so often at climactic moments, it is a similitude of some sort I suppose.)

So Satan, after existing eternally as an intelligence with God in the preexistence and getting his spiritual body from God, turns around and convinces 1/3 of the host (how many is a host?) to rebel against God and follow him. Color me a bit skeptical here. Since Satan is as intelligent (or nearly so) as Jesus, wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect he knows God is.. well.. ummm God?

Why would 1/3 of the population of heaven reject a plan that has been in place since the beginning of time, a plan by the way that is backed by God (he is the omnipotent guy in the corner that no one wants to mess with) and follow a being that clearly is less godly than God? Since there were different levels of intelligences to begin with, maybe this group got the really short end of the intelligence shtick.

How does a war even start when one side is led by an omnipotent being? Why would anyone even start such a war? If they did, it could hardly be called a war because God is on one side. Maybe it should be labeled the Brief Disagreement In Heaven.

How is Satan able to tempt all men? Does he have some Evil Ghost he controls that can be everywhere at all times?

This whole concept of Satan seems to be a caricature of a comic strip bad guy.

[_Fence Sitter]

Like Craig, you're targeting the caricature.

No I am targeting a theology that has about as much depth as a children's fairy tale. It looks like a caricature when compared to mainstream Christian theology. This is the stuff that mainstream LDS firmly believe and hold true.

The story as told reads like a children's fairy tale, not a literal representation of the events down to the last detail.

But it is believed as literal by most LDS and in my opinion every last one of the GA's. I think you would be hard pressed to find one GA who didn't think Satan was an actual being and who would actually be able to flesh it out any further. The church hires businessmen and lawyers as leadership, not theologians, for a good reason, there is nothing profound to actually expound. We are a religion of meaningless catch phrases like "Families are Forever", "Follow the Prophet" & "Choose the Right".

Comparatively, taking the recent presidential election as an example, it's really not hard to imagine such a scenario. You're "assuming" people "know" god is god in the same way that you as a human "imagine" god to be god. What if, in the premortal, god was just a dude. He was "grandpa" or whatever. Yeah, he's got some status, but where is it written that he's always right about everything? It's then not very hard to imagine discussions happening with a wide spectrum of opinion. Even among the 2/3 or 1/3 you'd have some people who were more or less committed to one side or another.

So there is this discussion in the pre-existence where God, THE God, is more like Wilford Brimely. People argue, words get said, sides get taken then this nice old grandpa steps in and CASTS 1/3 of an infinite number into ETERNAL DARKNESS for an eternity! Umm yeah that makes sense. Either people taking sides knew the penalty for taking sides, in which case why would anyone side against God Wilford Brimley or didn't know the penalty for siding with Satan and were punished forever for their decision. Neither makes any sense if God is to be viewed as loving at all.

Another thought I've frequently had is that to a certain extent it doesn't really matter. Unlike many of the "doom and gloom" christian churches, the LDS church for the most part has a "never too late" attitude about things. Don't accept gospel in this life, no worries, you'll get another chance. There seem to be endless opportunities. So, if you voted for Trump and aren't liking how things turned out, hey, no worries, we all make mistakes, it's not the end of the world. In other words, based on the church's own doctrine many in the church seem to take the church way too seriously. There is entirely too much pressure to get things right the first time around... and most of the satan talk seems to be hysteria of that sort... the perfection complex...

Well we are not talking about those of us who sided with God the first time around, we are talking about fully 1/3 of anyone who ever existed, who didn't get it right the first time around, and are now too late.

[_Gadianton]

all Satan would have to do is refuse to participate.

I made that point when I was a kid a few times. The two ways out I had was 1) He's so angry he doesn't care. There are smart people who know they will go to prison for that personal act of revenge, say killing someone, even though that person might not have been having a good life and suffers less now. 2) He might think he can win. Even if it's never been done before, we know God can cease to be God, and according to the PSA stuff that most students of the mysteries believe, God only is God because the intelligences obey him; well, Satan had 2/3s plus power over the water and air, right? If he really brings his A game, who knows...

ETA: another is that if experience has show someone will step up to the plate, then someone else would have fulfilled the role, just as had Joseph Smith not been so righteous, another would have restored the gospel. so he could reason that he'll do more damage than the next guy and have the fun while it lasts.

[_Choyo Chagas]

By refusing to participate, Satan would be throwing a wrench into God's entire plan. It would all fall apart. This is how weak God's plan really is...and because it is so dependent on a Satan who agrees to oppose god for it to work...all Satan needs to do to destroy gods plan is to refuse to participate.

that two guys - god and satan - are the best business partners
..

... even none of them exist ...

[_sock puppet]

... a religion of meaningless catch phrases like "Families are Forever", "Follow the Prophet" & "Choose the Right".

Who needs theologians when you've got marketers and PR professionals.