Hales latest effort on polygamy

[_JLHPROF]

If one judges a man they admire and believe innocent [without] full facts that wouldn't be cynicism [it would be gullibility].

I prefer idealism or optimism as antonyms for cynicism.

[Guest]

If one judges a man they admire and believe innocent [without] full facts that wouldn't be cynicism [it would be gullibility].

I prefer idealism or optimism as antonyms for cynicism.

That is because you're gullible .


But the larger question here is what view did Joseph Smith and his contemporaries have of abortion? Before we start assessing how he should be judged for his purported involvement in it, we should know how it was viewed. Before we label others today as cynical or gullible for defending or attacking him, we need to know how it was viewed in his time.

[_JLHPROF]

But the larger question here, is what view did Joseph Smith and his contemporaries have of abortion? Before we start assessing how he should be judged for his purported involvement in it, we should know how it was viewed. Before we label others today as cynical or gullible for defending or attacking him, we need to know how it was viewed in his time.

I say the same thing about marriage, polygamy, and polyandry.

[_Fence Sitter]

But the larger question here, is what view did Joseph Smith and his contemporaries have of abortion? Before we start assessing how he should be judged for his purported involvement in it, we should know how it was viewed. Before we label others today as cynical or gullible for defending or attacking him, we need to know how it was viewed in his time.

I say the same thing about marriage, polygamy, and polyandry.

This isn't a response. Do you have anything to indicate one way or the other how they felt about abortion? If not then how can you label someone's question about it as cynical?

[_aussieguy55]

What was Joseph doing all night when he is reported as spending the night with a particular woman. When he responded to William Clayton's concern over his first wife's objection to having another wife, Smith's response was "you have a right to all you can get" Did Smith just have sex at the wrong time of the month with the plural wives

[_JLHPROF]

This isn't a response. Do you have anything to indicate one way or the other how they felt about abortion? If not then how can you label someone's question about it as cynical?

I see what you are requesting. You want references concerning abortion from the Church members in Nauvoo.
I am not sure such references exist but there are some related ones.

William Smith in the Wasp accused Bennett of embryo infanticide. Hardly definitive but not much of an accusation if it was an accepted practice.

In 1851, the Saints in Utah (the same ones that lived in Nauvoo for the most part) passed a law that stated:
"Sec. 26. Be it further ordained, that if any person or persons shall use any means by which an untimely birth of any child shall be had, or any pregnant woman shall be delivered, by which the death or one or either may be produced, unless the same shall be proven to have been done for the purpose of preserving the life of the mother, they shall be deemed guilty of murder, and upon conviction thereof, suffer the penalty provided in the first section of this ordinance [i.e. death].

And later John Taylor, himself a Nauvoo polygamist repeatedly denounced abortion on numerous occasions. Two examples
"Their god is overlaid with gilt and tinsel, but inside it is pregnant with the social evil with its twin adjuncts feticide and infanticide." (John Dehlin 23:36)
and
""We must protest against foeticide, infanticide, and other abominable practices of Christendom being forced upon us, either in the shape of legislative enactment, judicial decision or any other adjunct of so-called civilization." (John Dehlin 20:354)

Perhaps their views changed from Nauvoo, but I doubt it.

[_JLHPROF]

What was Joseph doing all night when he is reported as spending the night with a particular woman. When he responded to William Clayton's concern over his first wife's objection to having another wife, Smith's response was "you have a right to all you can get" Did Smith just have sex at the wrong time of the month with the plural wives

I would LOVE someone with tons of time and energy to go through all the journals and records from 1841-1844 and determine where Joseph was each day to the best of their ability.
We know when he was in Nauvoo and when he was travelling, when he was in hiding, when he was in council meetings all evening, when Emma was in town, etc, etc.
And it's a relatively short period, just a couple of years.

I think it would be quite educational, and probably show that Joseph simply didn't have time or opportunity to impregnate most of these wives.
You look at average number of attempts medically to achieve pregnancy, along with number of nights Joseph had opportunity to be away from home/not sleeping beside Emma.

Did Joseph have relations with these wives? I think he did.
Did he have multiple nights with each wife at the correct time of the month to cause pregnancy? I am much less sure that happened.

[_Tator]

I think it would be quite educational, and probably show that Joseph simply didn't have time or opportunity to impregnate most of these wives

I don't know maybe Joseph was into "revolutionary sex", meaning he was a "minute" man.

[_grindael]

I think it would be quite educational, and probably show that Joseph simply didn't have time or opportunity to impregnate most of these wives.

I've done it and yes, he did. Plenty of time. He would take women out to Benj. Johnson's in Ramus, for example. He had a farm. He had them in his Mansion (Malissa Lott), and she also said they had sex at her parents house. Smith was at Sylvia Lyon's house on many occasions. I can go on and on. He had the Red Brick Store, and he had the homes of Kimball and Young to go to. And he had lots of opportunity when Emma traveled out of town which she did on many occasions to visit family and go to St. Louis.

[_grindael]

Was Bennett providing his services?

There is direct testimony from 1842 that Bennett was doing so.

Chancy L. Higbys teaching & conduct
were as follows. When he first came to my house ^soon^ after
the spical conferene this spring, darwin chase was with
him ^Chancy^ he comnced joking me about my getting married &
& [sic] wanted to know how long it had been for since my
husband died – and he soon removed his seat near
me & began his seducing insinations by saying it was
no harm to have sexual intercourse with women if they
would keep it to themselves. & continued to urge me to
yield to his desires, & urged me vehemently. & said he &
Joseph were Good friends & he teaches me this doctrine.
& allows me such privilgs & there is no harm in
it & Joseph Smith says so.– I told him I did not believe
it, & had heard no such teching frm Joseph. Nor frm the stand
but that it was wicked to commit adultry, &c. Chauncy said
that did not mean Single women, but Married women:
& continued to press his instructions & arguments until after
dark, & until I was inclined to believe, for he called God
to witness of the truth, & was so solemn and confident, I
yielded to his temptations, having received the stronget assure
from him that Joseph app[r]ovd it & would uphold me in it. [p. 2:]
He also told me that many others were following the same
coure of conduct As I still had some doubts near
the close of our interview I <agn> suggested my fear that I
had done wrong & should loose the confidence of the brthrn
when he assurd me that it was right & he would bring
a witness a witness to confirm what he had taught.
When he came again William Smith came with him
& told me that the doctrine which Chancy Higby had taught
me was true. & that Joseph believd the doctrine. I still
had doubts & replied that I had understood that Higby had
had [sic] recently been baptized & that Joseph when he confirmd him
told him to quit all his iniquitous practices. Chauncy
Said it was not for such things things that he was
baptized for <chauncy exited from the room> & William Smith said that he would take
all the sin to himself. – for there was no sin in
it. before Chauny left the house he said do you
think I would be baptized for such a thing & then go
into it so soon again. Chauncy Higby said that it
would never be known. I told him that it might be told in
bringing forth [pregnancy]. Chauny said there was no Danger <& that> Dr Bennt
understood it & would come & take it away if there was any
thing. Sarah Miller