CALLING PHIL JENKINS!!! CALLING PHIL JENKINS!!!

[_candygal]

yeah..I have to tell ya...or ask you all..who is Phil??? Is my stupidity sticking out here??

Nothing stupid about not knowing, candygal. Phil Jenkins is a professor at Baylor University who "famously" (at least in the Mormon internet term) debated Bill Hamblin, a professor and apologist from BYU. By nearly all accounts (read everyone but Mormons) saw Jenkins mop the floor with Hamblin across multiple blog posts back and forth.

The basic breakdown went like this:

Show me one piece of physical evidence in the New World to suggest the Book of Mormon is true.

Well you see the thing is...{lots of obfuscation and no evidence}

This went on, back and forth, for quite some time. You can find the play-by-play with links to the original blogs here.

Thank you so much for clarifying. If I hang around you guys long enough..I will be more in the know!!

[_Xenophon]

Thank you so much for clarifying. If I hang around you guys long enough..I will be more in the know!!

Usually half of the "inside" stuff isn't all that amazing to know. But the exchanges between Jenkins and Hamblin are classics and excellent examples of how silly the debate of Book of Mormon historicity can be.

Personally some of my favorite parts aren't in the actual blog posts(although they are quite good) but instead in the comments of those posts between Jenkins and some other thoughtful members that frankly did a better job responding to him than I personally think Hamblin did.

In this blog post by Jenkins there is an short but excellent exchange in the comments between Jenkins and a poster by the name of William Dequer. I enjoyed the respectful back and forth they had and I thought Jenkins did a pretty good job dismantling any complaints about his understanding of Book of Mormon genetics. The posts are full of these kind of exchanges so it is easy to see why this is an oft referenced discussion.

[_RockSlider]

candygal,

The roots/history run deep on this. Hamblin had taken some work review hits from BYU for his apologetics work (not part of his job description). Of course his buddy Dan Peterson was fired from his position at the Maxwell Institute. I assume the Church and BYU were tired of getting beat up in the academic world for its long standing old school apologetics, in this case on Ancient Book of Mormon Studies reportedly conducted at the University (which had no official classes and produced nothing reviewable by the outside world after all these years).

Bill Hamblin would not let go of it, as much as BYU (with assumed Church backing) was asking him to do. He remained a bitter and public critic of BYU's firing of Dan. Bill went out in a blazing flame with this embarrassment to all involved on the Church/school side of the fence. It highlighted exactly why BYU kicked Dan out and hoped to silence Bill via bad work reviews.

Bill sure did seem to catch on to the message after this beating, and basically has not been heard from since. This final beating likely came from inside as well as at the hand of Phil.

Bottom line, there is not one single piece of physical evidence, only nuanced woo woo to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon

[_candygal]

candygal,

The roots/history run deep on this. Hamblin had taken some work review hits from BYU for his apologetics work (not part of his job description). Of course his buddy Dan Peterson was fired from his position at the Maxwell Institute. I assume the Church and BYU were tired of getting beat up in the academic world for its long standing old school apologetics, in this case on Ancient Book of Mormon Studies reportedly conducted at the University (which had no official classes and produced nothing reviewable by the outside world after all these years).

Bill Hamblin would not let go of it, as much as BYU (with assumed Church backing) was asking him to do. He remained a bitter and public critic of BYU's firing of Dan. Bill went out in a blazing flame with this embarrassment to all involved on the Church/school side of the fence. It highlighted exactly why BYU kicked Dan out and hoped to silence Bill via bad work reviews.

Bill sure did seem to catch on to the message after this beating, and basically has not been heard from since. This final beating likely came from inside as well as at the hand of Phil.

Bottom line, there is not one single piece of physical evidence, only nuanced woo woo to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon

Thank you..and now I understand Hamblin a lot better. I knew about the dustup with Dan..but was not aware of some key points here. Interesting..but I will never forget Petersen's dismay at being removed while he was out of the country...ah..memories!!

[_Philo Sofee]

I actually felt bad for Hamblin...... I could for the first time SEE what an apologist looked like from the proverbial "Outsider point of view," and it wasn't pretty. I saw for the first time the actual obfuscation apologists dealt in. I saw the tap dancing AROUND the issues, not addressing them. But foremost and most significant for me personally, I saw the bankruptcy of evidence for the apologists to draw upon to defend the Book of Mormon and it was eye opening. I know there are several here who really do not like Hamblin. I do though. I've had lunch with him and spent some time with him and saw his library and gabbed with him and researched with him and he is really a nice guy. It's why it was hypnotizing seeing him being taken to the woodshed! And it was all over evidence.......actually the complete lack of it. That was astounding. It was this debate that showed me for the first time the significant lack of evidence and what it actually does mean for the reality of the Book of Mormon. I truly hope he is all right. Last I heard he was over in Greece somewhere. GOOD for him, get the hell out of Utah for a while and get some real air!