The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

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_Philo Sofee
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The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _Philo Sofee »

If I am behind the times, I apologize but I just run across this.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromo ... evelation/

So we have what appears to be a mere scholars guess (Hugh Nibley) about what John 1:1 reads, and another scholar takes up the torch and says the Council of the Gods actually is IN the Biblical manuscripts, but he really just liked Nibley's take on it, and that scholar is released after a few years because of experts saying this guy is loony tunes and a liar, and now Denver Snuffer received a revelation from God that the translation is accurate and so he uses it in his new scripture for his own church because the LDS is apostate? I mean soap operas don't get any better than this! :lol:
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_MsJack
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Re: The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _MsJack »

I took more classes from John Hall than anyone else at BYU and was close to him. He definitely taught us that "the spokesman was among the ruling council of the Gods" translation in his Greek classes and claimed that the manuscript evidence was in the John Rylands papyrus. I discussed it via e-mail with Carl Mosser at the time, who told me there was no such manuscript evidence.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Symmachus
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Re: The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _Symmachus »

Yes, it's a totally wrong translation. No one seems to have hit on the some of the essential reasons why, which are linguistic. I are offered them in a comment at Faith-Promoting Rumor, but for some reason that comment was flagged as spam and has never appeared. Here it is below:

Symmachus (signo Eusebius) wrote:This translation of John 1:1 is as amusing as it is absurd. In that, it reminds me of many an ancient etymology; Isidore of Seville is a goldmine, but sources as far afield as Plato, Varro and the Talmud work the same way: link up two words by mining the margins of one word's meaning for superficial resemblances to the other. The Hall-Nibley translation of λόγος looks like that. Sure, λόγος has to do with speaking, but it doesn't follow that it can also mean "speaker" or "spokesman" or whatever. Even Google Translate doesn't make this basic error in reasoning.

Anyone relying on an argument about the general problems of ambiguity in any translation in order to lend any scholarly credibility to this translation still has to consider the following linguistic facts that are internal to the Greek language itself. Greek has an abundant and concrete lexicon for oratorical and deliberative activities, and if this translation held any philological water, it shouldn't be too hard to find a parallel in the literary, epigraphical, or papyrological corpora for that meaning of λόγος. Also, Greek has a series of productive suffixes and a rich use of participles to form agentive nouns (-τηρ, -τωρ, -της, -ης, -ων, etc.), whereas "λόγος" is a pretty standard -o grade noun from -e grade verbal root. From a historical-linguistic perspective, this means that it is basically denominative, not agentive: it's a noun used to describe the activity done by a verb (in this case λέγω = "speak," so = λόγος = "speaking," or as we say in technical parlance, "word"). It is the sort of formation we would expect to describe the activity (speaking) but not the person who performs that act (the speaker). Greek does that in other ways, with suffixes and participles. A counter-argument might be that there are some agentive nouns ending in -ός (παιδαγωγός, for example), but of course that has its own difficulties: the accent on the last syllable, -ός, means it is an active noun, and a word ending like λόγος would be passive, because of its accent on the next-to-last syllable. Thus, being as generous as I possibly can, at best Hall could stretch the translation to mean "the person spoken about," but not the one doing the speaking. Of course, pursuing that line of linguistic argument, it could also be "the thing spoken," which is basically identical to the traditional translation of λόγος, "word."

When I read these kinds of word games in the Talmud or Varro, I don't fault these ancient pseudo-philologists for not being better philologists. Unlike, say, a person with degrees in classics and a PhD in ancient history from the University of Pennsylvania, they had no training in even the most elementary rudiments of modern philology (e.g. looking for other uses of λόγος in that sense in other texts, which should be the immediate impulse of anyone with a degree in classics who was at least partly conscious during their studies) or anywhere near the access to data that we have. Of course, no one committed to that kind of old LDS scholarship or the new Snufferians is going to care, and in my view it's a little ridiculous to criticize lay people for not caring what a bunch of academics think about the Bible. But for an academic there is an ethical suspicion about this. What is the point of a degree if you're not going to apply your training in your work? As in the case of many of the Old FARMSians, secular education just provides a cover for what are basically religious activities.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

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_MsJack
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Re: The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _MsJack »

that scholar is released after a few years because of experts saying this guy is loony tunes and a liar

He was not released because of anything having to do with John 1:1 or what "experts" say.

If that had been the case, Don Parry would have been released for teaching students that Gen. 3:16 can be translated "and he will rule with you" years ago. These pet Mormon translations with no basis in actual scholarship or peer review happen at BYU often enough.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Symmachus
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Re: The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _Symmachus »

MsJack wrote:
that scholar is released after a few years because of experts saying this guy is loony tunes and a liar

He was not released because of anything having to do with John 1:1 or what "experts" say.

If that had been the case, Don Parry would have been released for teaching students that Gen. 3:16 can be translated "and he will rule with you" years ago. These pet Mormon translations with no basis in actual scholarship or peer review happen at BYU often enough.


And that was the least of it! I loved Don Parry's classes, as well as the man himself, but there was some pretty loony crap going on in there sometimes.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_zerinus
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Re: The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _zerinus »

I like the Joseph Smith Translation best:

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.
4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;
5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Philo Sofee
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Re: The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Thanks for the back information you guys (n gal).... I always appreciate learning the background. I remember BYU was going to attempt this translation. The real question becomes why are scholars doing this and not the prophets? It amazes me that this question is actually considered rude in some quarters.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_zerinus
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Re: The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _zerinus »

Philo Sofee wrote:Thanks for the back information you guys (n gal).... I always appreciate learning the background. I remember BYU was going to attempt this translation. The real question becomes why are scholars doing this and not the prophets? It amazes me that this question is actually considered rude in some quarters.
I thought the BYU project was a commentary, not a transaction.
_deacon blues
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Re: The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _deacon blues »

zerinus wrote:I like the Joseph Smith Translation best:

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.
4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;
5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.


I would expect, or hope, that some basis for it would be found in old manuscripts of the New Testament, or the writings of the early church fathers.
_zerinus
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Re: The BYU New Testament Translation Debacle Amazing!

Post by _zerinus »

deacon blues wrote:I would expect, or hope, that some basis for it would be found in old manuscripts of the New Testament, or the writings of the early church fathers.
I am not bothered if it is not. The JST, like the B.O.M and PGP, is to be accepted on faith, not some kind of “evidence”.
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