I hadn't paid that much attention to the engravings. Interesting observations, grindael.
Actually they are not mine, they are from a contemporary source who saw the plates. There was a "Gentile Club" consisting of Charlotte Haven (who gave us that name) and Sylvester Emmons (who was a City Councilman and later the editor of the Expositor and wrote to the NY Herald as "A Gentile") and a few others, who have given us some good reliable information about what was happening with the plates. When Joseph first saw them he said he could translate them like he did with the Book of Mormon. In 1842 Joseph reread the entire Book of Mormon (as per the Book of the Law of the Lord) so he could correct mistakes and re-publish it in another edition. He published the Book of Abraham. He took over editing the Times and Seasons for a time and included many articles in which he tried to bolster the Book of Mormon with archaeological evidence. In 1840 he prophesied that "records" would be coming forth that would be translated. When he saw the Kinderhook Plates, he was struck by the similarities between the characters on those plates and the ones he supposedly copied from the Book of Mormon. I found over 30 matches between the two. It had been written in Church publications about the Jaredites, that they were "giants". Here are some quotes about the Jaredites,
As to the Jaredites, no more is known than is contained in The Book of Ether. Perhaps "Dighton writing Rock," in Massachusetts, may hold an unknown tale in relation to these Pioneers of the land of liberty, which can yet be revealed. God is great, and when we look abroad in the earth, and take a glimpse through the long avenue of departed years, we can not only discover the traces in artificial curiosities, and common works, and small hills, mountain caves, and extensive prairies, where the Jaredites filled the measure of their time, but, as they were a very large race of men, whenever we hear that uncommon large bones have been dug up from the earth, we may conclude, That was the skeleton of a Jaredite. The mystery of man in this world, has not been unfolded to all, yet; and it may not be, in full, till the Savior comes; but enough has come to light, in these last days, to show that man was made to multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it, whether a few branches of christendom knew it or not. To the point; a beautiful sketch of the Book of Ether is handed down to us, in the Book of Mormon, by Moroni. We give an extract. (The Evening and the Morning Star, Vol.1, No.3, p.22).
Recently so much is said about the discoveries of ancient ruins, that we feel inclined to offer a few ideas upon the subject. Were it necessary, in order to establish the truth of their reality, just as they are found, showing that civilized nations, possessing the highest attainments in the arts and sciences, once occupied this whole land, and we add, world, -- we might go behind the flood of Noah, and bring in the ante-deluvians, those "men of renown," and suppose a few cases of their "ruins" -- for there were "giants in the earth in those days," and put curiosity on the stretch: but there have been a plenty of events since the flood, to answer our purpose, notwithstanding the soil and sand which tumbled round the globe during the year when the "waters prevailed exceedingly," must have buried cities, towns and curiosities equal to any of the nineteenth century.
From many of the speculations of this age upon the grandeur of the ruins, discovered in Central and South America, it might be supposed, that no nations but those of the nineteenth century, could enjoy and execute the prerogatives of national greatness, national refinment, and worldly improvement. So small are the hidden mysteries and mighty acts of God, compared to the sword of a less than Bonaparte, and the 4-745.
As to the original inhabitants of the continent of America, the Book of Mormon, backs up the description of immense "ruins" in Central America, dispels all doubt. And while that book opens the sleeping history of two or three thousand years past, we can see the two families that came out from the tower, spreading from sea to sea, waxing more and more, greater and greater, until they had occupied the entire country fifteen hundred years. In honor of one of the two first families, they were called 'Jaredites.' After they had almost covered the land with cities, and probably made the present prairies by extensive cultivation.
The Book of Mormon says:
"And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men's shoulders which was grievous to be borne...
...The 'Jaredites,' were destroyed for their wickedness, but how many "spacious buildings," and doleful "prisons," remain among the ruins of departed things, as witnesses of their fame and folly, needs a little revelation to unravel: a portion of that spirit which showed a Daniel Nebuchadnezzar's dream and images might solve the mystery. If the "ruins," of Egypt, Balbec, Babylon, and Pompeii, exhibit in the smallest degree, the greatness and glory of the Oriental world, in past ages; so do the "ruins" of Central and South America declare the splendor, genius, intellect, refinement, and power that once actuated the master spirits and their hosts upon these uttermost parts of the earth., It takes some men a great while to consider upon the reality of revelation; they want the privilege of bringing up their "strong reasons" to refute it, when at the same time, a novel or other trite matter, will pass along for truth, without even a hint that all is vanity. -- This is not right: it destroys the efficacy of truth and religion at the same time, and introduces the wild imaginations of men in the place of the revealed will of God. (Times and Seasons, Vol.5, No.23, p.744-47).
And,
For once let us say, that Cain, who went to Nod and taught the doctrine of a "plurality of wives" and the giants who practiced the same iniquity; and Nimrod, who practiced the common stock system, and the Jews, who commenced crossing sea and land to make proselytes without revelation... (Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.888).
There is now extant a very erroneous idea of the knowledge of the first families of the earth, from Adam to Abraham. They possessed intelligence derived from God himself: -and they lived to the age of nearly one thousand years, in good health and vigor.- There were men of renown and giants in those days. Now we see dwarfs, mean men, consumption, short lived hypocrites and learned speculators upon all the vicissitudes, calamities and phenomena of nature, without the power to change one hair white or black. Surely we live in peculiar times, which if time permits, we shall speak further upon hereafter. (Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.1064)
In the first thousand years, was witnessed the fall of man; the building up of Zion, when Enoch with all his people, walked with God three hundred and sixty five years on earth, and then were taken up into heaven. In the second thousand years, the world was deluged with a flood for its wickedness; the tower was built that men might go to heaven, the language was confounded, the earth divided into continents and oceans; the people scattered upon the face of the whole earth; and America was peopled by the Jaredites. In the third thousand years, Pharaoh and his host were swallowed up in the Red Sea; Israel, the chosen of the Lord, was overshadowed by his glory in a cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night; and the building of the temple of the Lord at Jerusalem.In the fourth thousand years, the ten tribes of Israel were led away captive out of the land of Canaan, and taken to a place by the hand of the Lord that has not yet been discovered by the Gentiles; the Jaredites were destroyed because of their wickedness; Lehi was guided by the matchless power of God to this continent. (Times and Seasons, Vol.3, No.6, p.662. Jan. 15, 1842).
Joseph himself identified the area around Kinderhook as "the plains of the Nephites" and the "Land of Desolation" where both the Jaredites and Nephites supposedly roamed. They found the Zelph Mound east of there. Joseph "translates" a portion of the plates and mentions they are about an important person descended from Ham. Parley P. Pratt writes that
they contained the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham. Sylvestor Emmons wrote to the NY Herald as "A Gentile" who said they were compared by Joseph with the "Egyptian Alphabet which he took from the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated,
and they are evidently the same CHARACTERS. (plural). He says that Joseph said he would be able to decipher them.
Emmons also comments on the size of the person, that he was very large. Remember what Clayton's Journal said,
I have seen 6 brass plates which were found in Adams County by some persons who were digging in a mound. They found a skeleton about 6 feet from the surface of the earth which was 9 foot high. [At this point there is a tracing of a plate in the journal.] The plates were on the breast of the skeleton. This diagram shows the size of the plates being drawn on the edge of one of them. They are covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoah king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.
This is the information that Joseph had, and then he makes his "translation". Clayton speaks of no comparisons. That comes a week later. So did Joseph give the translation, then later try to back it up in the GAEL? Possibly.
When these little plates were written about later, we learned that they were interpreted in this way by some: Pictures at the top, below a line drawn horizontally on each plate with the hieroglyphics below. Here is what Dan Jones said about them:
“We remember one remarkable occasion that came to our attention while we were there, as an example, to prove what has been said, and to show the irrationality and power of prejudice. On the 16th of April, 1843, a man by the name of Robert Wiley, a merchant in Kinderhook, Pike County, state of Illinois, dreamt that there were some treasures hidden in a hillock known to him in the neighborhood; and after digging for about thirteen feet from the surface, he found six brass plates, four inches long, an inch-and three-quarters wide at one end, and two-and-three-quarter inches wide at the other end; four lists of letters (hieroglyphics) on each side of them. On one of the plates is the picture of three skulls, the largest in the middle, surrounded by rays similar to those one sees surrounding the head of our Savior in the pictures that are made of him now. Underneath the two smaller ones is the picture of two trees, and their branches; on one of the plates is the picture of a large head, and the picture of two hands pointing to it. We saw those plates, and the case was publicized through the newspapers, and I did not hear that anyone disbelieved it; but if the one who found them were to utter a word that angels had anything to do with the matter, we do not think that he would be believed about this, any more than Joseph Smith is believed that he received gold plates. ...And is not the fact that this uneducated Joseph Smith has translated the one set of plates, [Kinderhook] while knowledge of the hieroglyphics has been lost to the world, almost since the time immemorial, apart from a few letters, proof that he also translated correctly the others that were given to him through angelic ministry? [Gold Plates] No doubt these, in addition to the many others that could be noted, are incontrovertible facts in the eyes of every reasonable man.” (Dan Jones, Prophet of the Jubilee, pages 37-38)
That is where I got "lines" from, but they are rows. This is how Jones viewed them. I have another account of someone describing the top half as pictures also.
), would not make a secular casual comparison. They would make a serious inquiry of God. Yet we see this didn't happen. He didn't inquire of God which is a big hit to his claims of being a real prophet who communicates with God all the time, and instead made a very causal comparison to the GAEL, giving a fraud a plausible explanation for later, why he got it wrong. 