Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

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_Runtu
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Runtu »

grindael wrote:I have some questions for Santa Claus...

1. How do your Reindeer fly?
2. How to you fit down all those chimneys?
3. Are there really little elves that make all those toys?
4. Where do you really live at the North Pole?
5. Where did the elves come from?
6. How do you know if anyone's been good or bad?
7. How do you fit all those toys in your bag?
8. How are only eight Reindeer able to tow all the world's toys?
9. Is there a Mrs. Claus?
10. If you are married, was your wife one of those elves?

Bonus question: Do you really like milk and cookies?


Really? I may have issues with Clark's approach, but this kind of response is childish.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_grindael
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _grindael »

It wasn't directed at Clark's response but going back and asking Smith about how he got his "revelations", and "translations" which were obviously made up.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_grindael
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _grindael »

Smith actually gave an answer how he got such things, and it was from the "Holy Ghost", an imaginary person much like Santa Claus.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

ClarkGoble wrote:Maybe it's just my background in philosophy and interest in epistemology, but were I to ask questions of him regarding the facsimiles, the questions I'd ask would be:


Well, what is is and what isn't isn't. I'm more interested in the cold hard facts. Smith said many things and often right to the point. He said what he meant and meant what he said. In time it was shown that what he said is not true so it becomes necessary for the apologist to find ways to allow intuitive reasoning coupled with faith and imaginary belief to rescue things and make them true. But that doesn't make those things true -- it makes them religious.
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

ClarkGoble wrote:1. Did he think the Hor scroll held the text of the Book of Abraham. (I recognize there's evidence for that, but I'd like a clear answer from him as to his understanding)


You're beginning to scratch the surface, Clark. Allow me to explain. It doesn't matter what Joseph Smith thought. That's not what's important to this case. What's important is what he said God thought. Joseph Smith declared that God said the Hor roll contained the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith was speaking for God -- regardless of what Smith may have thought or believed -- he was God's mouthpiece and speaking for God. It isn't Smith's opinion that we are after! Smith was speaking for God, not himself.

Therefore, Smith's God is on trial, not Smith!

So . . . .
_Themis
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Themis »

Shulem wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:Maybe it's just my background in philosophy and interest in epistemology, but were I to ask questions of him regarding the facsimiles, the questions I'd ask would be:


Well, what is is and what isn't isn't. I'm more interested in the cold hard facts. Smith said many things and often right to the point. He said what he meant and meant what he said. In time it was shown that what he said is not true so it becomes necessary for the apologist to find ways to allow intuitive reasoning coupled with faith and imaginary belief to rescue things and make them true. But that doesn't make those things true -- it makes them religious.


Until one wants the truth more then they want what they believe to be true they will always approach these issues with the conclusion settled. It doesn't matter whether you are a believing Mormon like Clark or a believing Scientologist. Neither are open minded enough to see the truth.
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_Lemmie
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Lemmie »

Shulem wrote:In time it was shown that what [Joseph Smith] said is not true so it becomes necessary for the apologist to find ways to allow intuitive reasoning coupled with faith and imaginary belief to rescue things and make them true. But that doesn't make those things true -- it makes them religious.

That is the full story behind mopologetics, Shulem. Well said.
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

ClarkGoble wrote:1. Did he think the Hor scroll held the text of the Book of Abraham. (I recognize there's evidence for that, but I'd like a clear answer from him as to his understanding)


What do you think Smith thought? Do you suppose he agreed with what he said God thought? How about Orson Pratt? Do you think he agreed with what Smith said God thought?

Orson Pratt wrote:The prophet took them and repaired to his room and inquired of the Lord concerning them. The Lord told him they were sacred records, containing the inspired writings of Abraham when he was in Egypt, and also those of Joseph, while he was in Egypt; and they had been deposited with these mummies, which had been exhumed. And he also inquired of the Lord concerning some few characters which Mr. Chandler, gave him by way of a test, to see if he could translate them.
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

ClarkGoble wrote:1. Did he think the Hor scroll held the text of the Book of Abraham. (I recognize there's evidence for that, but I'd like a clear answer from him as to his understanding)


What did Joseph think? Well, what did he say?

Joseph Smith wrote:Soon after this, some of the saints in Kirtland purchased the mummies and papyrus, a description of which will appear hereafter, and with W.W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to my joy found that one of the rolls contained the writing of Abraham, another the writing of Joseph of Egypt, etc., -- a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth


It's reasonable to think that Joseph Smith thought the same thing he said the Lord thought. The question is: Is Smith's God right? That's the real question, Clark! Smith is not the one on trial. His God is!
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