One Man and the Apostolic Coup

[_Dr. Shades]

(There's also a thread discussing some of this over on MD&D that I've been following. "Bob Crockett" is getting his ass handed to him )

Will you please post a link to that thread?

[Guest]

(There's also a thread discussing some of this over on MD&D that I've been following. "Bob Crockett" is getting his ass handed to him )

Will you please post a link to that thread?

It starts on this page and continues through today's posts (but is off topic and you have to skim to follow his posts and replies). He's initially directing his comments to Bill Reel, but others join in to dispute what he's claiming:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/693 ... e/?page=12

It starts getting better when ALarson and others join the discussion on this page:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/693 ... e/?page=16

[_Kishkumen]

I see that he keeps bringing up Bill. Where does Bill talk about this?

[_Madison54]

I see that he keeps bringing up Bill. Where does Bill talk about this?

He just did a podcast on this, I believe. I'll try to look that up.

[_consiglieri]

I see that he keeps bringing up Bill. Where does Bill talk about this?

He just did a podcast on this, I believe. I'll try to look that up.

Actually Bill is repeating information he learned from the RFM podcast.

The picture that is starting to emerge for me on the Q12 seizing the reins is that Brigham felt he had all the ordinances, because he had received them from Joseph Smith, and Brigham may have given the highest ordinances to the 12 at Joseph's direction, or many may have received them directly from Joseph Smith.

None of the other contenders for leadership had these ordinances, which Brigham knew.

But the ordinances themselves were shrouded in secrecy.

So perhaps Brigham felt he had license to do the things he did to secure leadership for the Q12, although he couldn't come out and say precisely why it was he felt that way.

All the shenanigans Brigham did with releasing William Marks from the Nauvoo stake presidency and then decimating the priesthood membership of the Nauvoo stake as well as the Seventy may have been justified in his mind as seeking for the higher good--said higher good being to have leaders who had the ordinances and could therefore be in a position to continue them forward and keep them in the church.

What do you think?

[_Fence Sitter]

What do you think?

I think that is a much stronger argument for BY taking over than the common consent one Bob is trying to make fly over at MAD, but then one has to understand Bob is not so much concerned about a cogent argument as he is about disputing anything Bill Reel says. Bob's got a wild hair up his ass when it comes to Bill.

[_Kishkumen]

So perhaps Brigham felt he had license to do the things he did to secure leadership for the Q12, although he couldn't come out and say precisely why it was he felt that way.

All the shenanigans Brigham did with releasing William Marks from the Nauvoo stake presidency and then decimating the priesthood membership of the Nauvoo stake as well as the Seventy may have been justified in his mind as seeking for the higher good--said higher good being to have leaders who had the ordinances and could therefore be in a position to continue them forward and keep them in the church.

What do you think?

More than feeling he had license to do these things, he felt it was a matter of the survival of Joseph Smith's fullness of the priesthood, which included not only the endowment, but also polygamy and the second anointing. Brigham and his fellows in the Anointed Quorum felt like they now had the highest blessings one could receive as a divine reward for their sacrifices. The idea that someone else who was inimical to important aspects of this system (i.e., polygamy) would take over and stamp them out was completely unacceptable to them.

This was a matter of survival. Instead of being the new elite of the Kingdom, they might have ended up ex-communicated apostate exiles.

William Marks, Sidney Rigdon, Samuel Smith(?)--if these guys were opponents of polygamy who had not received the second anointing then they could not be trusted to perpetuate the full rites of the priesthood.

I really don't think any other option could have worked. Was there a coup? Yes. I believe so. But it was one that was precipitated by the untimely death of Joseph Smith. To imagine Joseph Smith wanting the fullness of the priesthood to blow up and his revelations invalidated is, I think, absurd.

Yes, the situation was impossible. The Twelve did lack standing to take over, and, yet, they absolutely had to take over. There was no other option. So either they did, and God did not approve because they had no legal standing according to the revelations of the Church, or they did and God approved because it was the only way. If you believed in the esoteric rites, you were faced with those choices.

[_SteelHead]

I always viewed "the second anointing" as a formalized priesthood ordinance, and "receiving the 2nd comforter" - having the veil lifted from your eyes and being able to no longer be kept from viewing Jesus ala the Brother of Jared; both ways of having one's calling and election made sure.

D&C 131

5 The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

A sealing ordinance, sealing the recipient into eternal life. Through which one would join the "Church of the Firstborn" (which I thought was the official name of the quorum Kish refers to), and be sealed into eternal life and exaltation, a king and priest in Israel where the endowment just anoints to become such.

One could achieve it at the hands of Jesus through extreme faith, and righteousness -

Ether 3

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

Or be nominated and receive the ordinance from one of the 12 of their delegates. It being an ordinance performed in the Holy of Holies, and understanding that rooms in Stake Houses and Ward Buildings could temporarily be consecrated as Holy of Holies for recipients distant from temples.

Being not highly connected in the church (something that seems to help with receiving the 2nd anointing) I was looking to get mine the more "organic" way.

Denver claims to have achieved the 2nd way. I have heard of others who have also claimed this. The church likes to keep people under its thumb, and so I also have heard of people who claimed to have entered into the presence of Jesus, then having their 2nd anointing performed by the brethren. It gets muddy.

--ETA--

I have also seen it argued that when Joseph Smith saw god and Jesus (First Vision), he defacto had his calling and election made sure/received a fullness of the priesthood and it was by this reception of the fullness of the priesthood he was able o perform a sealing to Fanny Alger before the formal restoration of the sealing power.


Things get muddy with a mystery cult.

[_RockSlider]

I have yet to read this thread, but have been listening to the following:

http://mormonexpression.com/?p=5112

Both episodes should be listened to/reviewed by all here, but for this immediate discussion, please jump to time mark:

39:40


What about this "meeting of the last charge"?

[_zeezrom]

Andrew F. Ehat

I don't have anything useful to add to this thread other than to say that I had lunch with Andrew and his wife. He told me that he had the William Clayton journal writings in his possession, took notes from them, and later his notes were stolen. That's pretty sad.