Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _Kishkumen »

So, imagine the following scenario, which, I admit, is highly speculative, but nevertheless extremely intriguing.

So, Joseph Smith had this idea that his family was descended from Joseph of Egypt. The Book of Mormon, a testament of Josephite peoples, contains a prophecy about a latter-day Joseph, son of Joseph. Most likely, this is self-referential. Joseph is dictating a prophecy about himself. If we think of the folk magical activities of Smith, Sr. and his sons as Mormonism's proto-priesthood, then the ritual instruments they used in these practices could possibly be seen as imbued with sacred significance and maybe sacred power.

Let's imagine that the first person of the Smith, Sr. family to cherish and use such objects was Joseph Smith, Sr. himself. He could have seen these objects as related to his priesthood "by right and blessing," his blood descent from Joseph entitling him to the Patriarchate. So, these relics become attached to the Church Patriarchate. Hyrum either held his own, or took over his father's ritual implements. (I am guessing he had his own, and I think there may be evidence on the parchments that point to Hyrum, If I recall correctly.) It might be the case, also, that Alvin should have been the recipient of those blessings, but he had unfortunately died. Alvin was seen as very important to the project of the Book of Mormon in its early conception.

So, think now of the sudden arrival of papyri with Egyptian mummies. Joseph announces that these papyri are records of Joseph and Abraham! Abraham preceded Joseph, and evidence points to the probability that Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham was conceived as being part of the larger record of Joseph. It was, in short, a patriarchal record that had been preserved in Egypt and passed down. If you look at images of the papyri themselves and compare them with the images of the magical parchments Eldred G. Smith displayed in the '70s, the points of similarity kind of jump out at you. This is especially true of the famous hypocephalus.

Image

Consider the possibility that the similarity of the papyri to the magical parchments inclined Joseph to view the former as similar to the latter. Ceremonial secrets were contained in these papyri, just as magical ceremonial secrets were contained in the parchments. The magical parchments have astrological symbols on them; the hypocephalus has Smith's interpretations of Abraham's understanding of the cosmos.

Fig. 2. Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham, as he offered sacrifice upon an altar, which he had built unto the Lord.


If the treasure digging circles were Joseph Smith's first ritualized way of making sacred space, then it stands to reason that the parchments were seen as related to the creation of sacred space, including the temple. It is not surprising, then, that the hypocephalus would be supposed by Smith to contain sacred temple information:

Fig. 8. Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.


What I am saying is that Joseph Smith's view of the papyri was molded by his prior experience with folk magic. This experience was entirely tied up in the Smith family belief in being special descendants of Joseph. Naturally, the records buried with the mummies, looking so reminiscent of the symbolism of the parchments, were interpreted as being of similar import. Here is a Josephite record with astronomical, priesthood, and temple secrets. Moreover, these relics have found their rightful owners in the Smith family descendants of Joseph, who know of their Josephite tradition.

So, it is not surprising that the possession of the papyri would be a big priority for Smith, and it is not surprising that they stayed with the family. Who displayed these relics in Nauvoo? The Smith family. Who kept the papyri? Emma. Who held onto the parchments and dagger? The descendants of Hyrum, but, one also might say, those to whom the right of the Josephite Patriarchy belonged. The Josephite Patriarchy died out with Eldred G. Smith. He displayed the magical relics as Lucy Mack Smith had displayed the mummies in Nauvoo over a hundred years earlier.

This is, of course, highly speculative, but it is an interesting way of making tentative sense out of disparate but clearly connected data points.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Maksutov wrote:Do I see and understand correctly that the blade of the dagger on one side shows the tetragrammaton? Seems like someone was playing with Qaballah. These also remind me of the Jupiter talisman that Reed Durham talked about. My understanding of the dagger from traditional magic is that it is used to create magic circles for binding spirits. I will see if I can find out more.


Somewhere I have seen a diagram that shows the source books of various parts of the lamen. The symbols came from a variety of sources. Most of them can be found in Sibley, I believe. But not all of them.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Now consider these parallels:

Lamen/Ceremonial dagger/Seer stone
Book of Mormon/Sword of Laban/Urim and Thummim
Joseph Smith Papyri/X/X

So, why bother with the Joseph Smith Papyri if there is no sword of Joseph or seer stone of Joseph?

What happened when the Mulekites showed the Nephites the stone containing the Jaredite record? They delivered the Jaredite record to Mosiah, who was a seer possessing the interpreters, and he interpreted the Jaredite record containing the great mystery of Brother of Jared's discovery of the philosopher's stone and vision of God.

The delivery of the Joseph Smith Papyri to Joseph Smith in Kirtland is parallel to the Jaredite record reaching Mosiah.

So:

Joseph Smith Papyri/Sword of Laban(Joseph)/Seer stone(Urim and Thummim)

The delivery of the Joseph Smith Papyri to Joseph Smith was the reuniting of long-separated Josephite relics.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _Dr. Shades »

consiglieri wrote:Where on earth did you learn this?

A full discussion of this, along with photographs, can be found in D.
Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View: Revised and Expanded Edition (Salt Lake City: Signature Books), 1998.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _Kishkumen »

I can ask Brent Metcalfe if he will let me transcribe his Facebook post to this board.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Kishkumen wrote:They delivered the Jaredite record to Mosiah, who was a seer possessing the interpreters, and he interpreted the Jaredite record containing the great mystery of Brother of Jared's discovery of the philosopher's stone and vision of God.

The Brother of Jared never discovered the philosopher's stone.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Dr. Shades wrote:The Brother of Jared never discovered the philosopher's stone.


Sure, Shades, whatever you say.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Kishkumen wrote:So, it is not surprising that the possession of the papyri would be a big priority for Smith, and it is not surprising that they stayed with the family. Who displayed these relics in Nauvoo? The Smith family. Who kept the papyri? Emma. Who held onto the parchments and dagger? The descendants of Hyrum, but, one also might say, those to whom the right of the Josephite Patriarchy belonged. The Josephite Patriarchy died out with Eldred G. Smith. He displayed the magical relics as Lucy Mack Smith had displayed the mummies in Nauvoo over a hundred years earlier.


Interesting speculation Reverend but I think there is a problem regarding how valuable the Smith family regarded the Egyptian artifacts after Joseph Smith's death. Lucy Mack Smith had possession of them up until her death on May 14, 1856. On May 26, 1856 Emma and/or JSIII (I am still checking who) sold the artifacts to a Mr A. Combs who later sold part of the to a museum. So while maybe Lucy thought they were valuable, his wife and son didn't since it took less than two weeks for Emma or JSIII to sell them after Lucy's death.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Fence Sitter wrote:Interesting speculation Reverend but I think there is a problem regarding how valuable the Smith family regarded the Egyptian artifacts after Joseph Smith's death. Lucy Mack Smith had possession of them up until her death on May 14, 1856. On May 26, 1856 Emma and/or JSIII (I am still checking who) sold the artifacts to a Mr A. Combs who later sold part of the to a museum. So while maybe Lucy thought they were valuable, his wife and son didn't since it took less than two weeks for Emma or JSIII to sell them after Lucy's death.


Thanks for that correction, Fence Sitter. I don't think it affects the overall thesis, since Lucy Mack Smith was much more invested in, involved in, and sympathetic to the family mythos, whereas Emma tried to distance herself from many things. She also tried to make sure that Joseph III did not tread in his father's footsteps in certain regards, so I am not surprised.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_RockSlider
_Emeritus
Posts: 6752
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:02 am

Re: Magical Relics of the Patriarchal Order?

Post by _RockSlider »

Obviously got them straight from Satan. Remember the live endowment and Satan's apron. Sure looks like the pictures upthread. "signs of my power and priesthoods"

eta,

the dagger handed down from Abraham, the one to be used against his son.
Post Reply