Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

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_Kishkumen
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _Kishkumen »

So, Gadianton, do you think that Dr. Duane Boyce is charismatic?
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Gadianton
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _Gadianton »

In the sense of rallying people around a cause, um, no. Not in the least. He's actually an improvement from the "sarcastic teen" personality and radiates a degree of seriousness, but he's pedantic as all get out and an essayist. Now, someone could point out that this is scholarship and not a popularity contest but I disagree. When it comes to rallying a few million faithful members around a "rational" exegesis of their faith, the personality and spirit of the movement is what will matter most. If they are going to compete with Meldrum then they need to rethink their entire game. I'm not even sure it is possible. I am saying that while I might think it's kind of lame to go after Mason and Givens etc -- and it's super hypocritical, skimming through the points he takes issue with, all the Mopologists have made similar points about prophets being fallible etc. -- it's not outside of the realm of what I would consider legitimate Mormon thinking, it's in fact, in line with Meldrum's criticisms of FARMS, it's kind of head spinning to think about.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Some fascinating ideas, Dean Robbers. The comparison in terms of charisma is revealing. Looking back 10 or 15 years ago, sure: you can see who the "charismatic" personalities were among the Mopologists: Midgley, Hamblin, and even someone (I would argue) like Pahoran, and of course DCP. Even now, just look at who the keynote speaker is at the FAIR Conference, and it's been this way for what? 10 years? But these guys developed their "charisma"--such as it is--out of the kind of vicious, polemical tactics that the Reverend laid out in his OP (and directed at many others beyond fellow LDS). A certain stripe of Mormon liked what these guys did--it felt satisfying to them to see these guys "kick some trash," as Asbestosman once put it.

Dr. Peterson seems to be the last remaining one with any interest in trying to sustain something resembling "charisma," but given the history of FARMS, he is failing pretty miserably (even more so if we are using Meldrum as the comparison). He throws up, by his own estimation "1,000 blog posts per year." Is that sheer volume generating more readers? More interest in Mormon Interpreter? More donations? Tom's careful analysis of the Interpreter Foundation's financials would seem to suggest that they have been in a more or less steady state since their inception. So, no: it's not working.

Part of this is because the strategy itself is a failure: DCP doesn't do "negative" Mopologetics any more. Instead, he hides behind Boyce, like a coward. His fan base always looked up to him as the big, tough, smart "holy warrior" who would not just smack down the "uncontested slam-dunks," but who would humiliate the critics in the process, and he just doesn't do this anymore. Just go back up and read Tom's post: he won't take any concrete positions, he won't take out any clear arguments, he won't say anything of substance.

Instead he has attempted to fashion this persona of somehow who mixes it up with those 1,000-per-year blogs: pulling something out of Bartlett's Quotations here, something from The National Review there, plus a bit from his travels and the latest venture he and his wife took to scout out which deep-fried items they are serving at the local restaurants. How much does any of the really offer up to the curious Latter-day Saint? Meldrum--as you say--is offering up "exciting discoveries." Prof. P., on the other hand, is offering up stale quotations, and endless anecdotes about himself, and occasional links to actual work that other people are doing.

I wonder, Dean Robbers. Clearly there is an audience for the more positive, "discovery"-driven work of Meldrum, but is there still a large, untapped audience for the attacks and smear-campaigns of classic-FARMS? Though it may be a tough thought to entertain, the fact remains that "shocking," attack-minded people like Milo Yiannopoulos, Donald Trump, and Howard Stern are all "charismatic" in their own ways. I wonder if the ejection from the MI has permanently robbed the Mopologists of "charisma."
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Gadianton
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _Gadianton »

Doctor Scratch wrote:I wonder, Dean Robbers. Clearly there is an audience for the more positive, "discovery"-driven work of Meldrum, but is there still a large, untapped audience for the attacks and smear-campaigns of classic-FARMS? Though it may be a tough thought to entertain, the fact remains that "shocking," attack-minded people like Milo Yiannopoulos, Donald Trump, and Howard Stern are all "charismatic" in their own ways. I wonder if the ejection from the MI has permanently robbed the Mopologists of "charisma."


Thank you for your scholarly insights. I totally agree with what you are saying here, and I thought I'd mentioned the common right-wing fabric that Boyce/Open Stories Foundation and Meldrum are cut from. In fact, I almost wrote that Boyce's persona is a risky one with the established niche of Open Stories Foundation. You are totally right that there is a market for attack-mindedness and teen sarcasm, but, despite the success of Trump and Stern, Open Stories Foundation had decades doing their thing and they had their niche, but they never really held that much sway with the general membership. I don't know if that's because they weren't as good as Trump at middle-school humor or because at the end of the day, Mormons in great numbers simply aren't wired to rally around that kind of a thing when it comes to gospel doctrine. Either way, they failed to prove themselves, and the experiment with the new MI is certainly justified.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _Kishkumen »

I think a most interesting comparison would be the number of Snuffer followers and the number of FAIR conference attendees, or the number of people who buy hard copy volumes of Interpreter. Talk about charisma. Snuffer offers his followers a Jesus-seeing prophet, not vanishing Book of Mormon geographies. Could it be that people are thirsting for a charisma that neither the LDS apologists nor the LDS Church itself can offer?
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Gadianton
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _Gadianton »

Snuffer is a great example also and clearly the current leadership doesn't have the same adoration from members as it did in the past.

When it comes to being a Mormon, "rationality" isn't at all important, at least not in the sense that it intersects with truth. DCP is wrong if he thinks the Church actually needs a robust empirically argued foundation -- fortunately for him and the Church, he is wrong.

If I'm a chemist, a popularity contest can only go so far, at the end of the day, chemicals have got to work the way we think they do to get results. But all that matters for a church that only pays out in the supposed next life is to keep members excited and motivated to pay tithing, it doesn't matter how empirically right or wrong it is about anything.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:Snuffer is a great example also and clearly the current leadership doesn't have the same adoration from members as it did in the past.


And for good reasons. Brigham Young was not Joseph Smith. He was a forceful person who could bully people into doing what he said, but he was incapable of evoking the same inspiration in others. From there the LDS leadership just devolved into more or less kindly or stern administrators. If you read about Heber J. Grant, you find that he was hardly spiritual at all. He was principally concerned with keeping/imposing the rules and being financially sensible. He seems to have left quite a mark on the leadership culture of the LDS Church. And that is not the kind of charisma to inspire adoration. Basically, the members have to impose charisma on the leadership. If it weren't for the fact that business acumen is itself worshiped in American culture, the leadership of the LDS Church would have been abandoned a long time ago.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Gadianton
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _Gadianton »

What about David O. McKay and good old Spencer? I mention these because I remember so many positive comments from my parents about them. And what about Joseph Fielding Smith the great gospel scholar? My mom used to tell this story about her mother. Everyone was listening live to the first moon landing and my grandmother insisted well into the broadcast that they'd fail because Joseph Fielding smith said so. Finally, the intellectual of the family told her to hush because "they're doing it!". My mother would tell the story and laugh.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_RockSlider
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _RockSlider »

The silver fox carries the day for charisma.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Austin Farrer and Internal Polemics in the LDS Community

Post by _Dr. Shades »

I have a question wrote:Are Givens, Hardy and Mason such a threat to the apologetic style of Peterson et al such that he would promote something as shoddily put together as the Boyce stuff?

I wonder: Now that the Evangelical critics have gone away, have the Mopologists taken to devouring their own?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
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