Page 2 of 3
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:41 pm
by _deacon blues
I know, I know. This has all been done before. It's like trench warfare. I'm a little disappointed that MG referenced Eldon Watson's work but apparently didn't read the parts of the timeline that I indicated. But I do this partly for mental exercise, since I consider myself a "dumb intellectual.
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:50 pm
by _Lemmie
deacon blues wrote:I know, I know. This has all been done before. It's like trench warfare. I'm a little disappointed that MG referenced Eldon Watson's work but apparently didn't read the parts of the timeline that I indicated. But I do this partly for mental exercise, since I consider myself a "dumb intellectual.
Sorry deacon blues, I wasn't referring to you, only to the "miraculous 60-65 days" retread. That's the problem with just throwing up references year after year rather than having an actual discussion.
In fact, you bring up a valid point, Eldon Watson's work apparently does NOT support the "60 days" hypothesis--good catch!
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:18 pm
by _mentalgymnast
deacon blues wrote:Please read the timeline months of about Dec. 1828 to March 1829 and note that Watson shows how he believes Emma, with Joseph dictating, wrote almost the entire book of Mosiah. Watson's work is a hypothetical timeline, but he clearly believes Emma (and possibly other scribes) did significant work before Oliver arrived on the scene.
Yes, Emma probably spent more time as scribe than is often attributed to her.
As to the actual length of translation time we have this:
I have excluded the translation of the book of Mosiah from the portion of the plates which were assumed translated by Joseph Smith with Oliver Cowdery as scribe, as it appears likely to me that Mosiah had already been translated before Oliver's arrival. This reduces the volume of material which was translated during the approximately 80 day period of translation, and reasonably reduces the translation rate to approximately 6.5 pages per day.
Watson says that the Mosiah portion was finished a couple of weeks before Oliver Cowdery arrived.
March 8, 1829, Harmony
(Translation to Mosiah 27:33, Harmony) D&C 5 received.
This date has been selected to allow completion of the Book of Mosiah approximately two weeks before the arrival of Oliver Cowdery. D&C 5 specifies that Joseph is to "translate a few more pages" and then stop for a season. The "few more pages" implies that there is a logical stopping point which Joseph will reach after having translated these few more pages.
"... behold, I say unto thee Joseph, when thou hast translated a few more pages thou shalt stop for a season, even until I command thee again; then thou mayest translate again. And except thou do this, behold thou shalt have no more gift, and I will take away the things which I have entrusted with thee. [D&C 5:30-31]
I have assumed that this logical stopping point is the end of the Book of Mosiah, having translated a total of 62 pages. (To make comparisons simpler, my definition of a "page" here is a printed page in the 1988 edition of the Book of Mormon.) The gift of translation had been restored to Joseph on 22 September 1828, and he said he had resumed translating with Emma as scribe. It seems to me that when the Lord told Joseph he would send him a scribe, it was because progress was slow, not because it had stopped. As can be seen by the timeline, this assumption is not extraordinary, and is reached by presuming a translation rate of only three pages per week. Since Joseph and Oliver later average well over 6 pages per day, this would compare with spending a total of one half day per week in the process of translating.
If you factor in the stops and starts, however, don't you still have an 80 day window in which the translation narrative fits when you factor in the D&C revelations (and the dates that are attributed to them) that came during that time?
Regards,
MG
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:26 pm
by _mentalgymnast
SteelHead wrote:Joseph Smith had between the first report of the visit of Moroni and 6 years later to write the narrative. The 60 days is a non starter.
I know we've been down this road before...
Joseph and the hat prop for visitors, etc.
It doesn't seem to fit the timeline narrative though. The narratives by witnesses to the translation, and the timeline set up by Watson, seem to shrink wrap the translation period into a shorter amount of time.
I know we've discussed this all before, but I was never convinced...at least from the accounts I've read along the way...that Joseph could have made it all up and then wrote the Book of Mormon in secret and then do the rock in a hat trick simply to impress/fool visitors...and bring in cohorts to help him with the con. It's too much of a stretch.
But that's just me.
I'm simply bringing this all up again because the OP encouraged it.
I personally am not disposed to spending much time rehashing old arguments either.
Regards,
MG
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:28 pm
by _mentalgymnast
Lemmie wrote: Deja vu all over again...
I know, right?
Regards,
MG
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:30 pm
by _mentalgymnast
Lemmie wrote:In fact, you bring up a valid point, Eldon Watson's work apparently does NOT support the "60 days" hypothesis--good catch!
If I'm reading correctly, it's more like 80 days if you factor in Mosiah and the reboot after the 116 pages. Is that closer?
Regards,
MG
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:10 am
by _Kishkumen
Gee, Joseph Smith was talking to his family about the ancient Indians and how they lived for years before he translated the Book of Mormon. And he said Moroni was lecturing him about these subjects when they periodically met. But surely Joseph could have only worked out the composition of the Book of Mormon when he was dictating to a scribe! It would be crazy to think that all of those stories and angelic tutoring sessions contributed anything to the substance of the translation!
I just haven’t been able to see this any other way. But I remain open minded about it. If only someone could convince me of the possibility.
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:53 pm
by _SuperDell
Need to give up completely using the word "translation".
He wrote it. He did not translate anything.
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:57 pm
by _deacon blues
Watson's hypothesis suggests 80 days, not counting the book of Mosiah. It look like Watson says that took another 20-30 days.
I agree with Kish. I think that Joseph essentially had the Book of Mormon account in his head before he began dictating the 116 pages. It is still an astonishing feat, by an astonishing man. There are a few astonishing people though history who come to mind: Alexander the Great, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Da Vinci, Bach, Mozart, Joseph Smith, Einstein, Charlie Parker, to name but a few. They all accomplished astonishing things that most of us could never dream of. Some call it genius, some call it a gift from God. I can see why people believe in the Book of Mormon. I just have trouble thinking Joseph Smith's explanation of it is true, considering the context (Book of Abraham papyri, Inspired translation of the Bible, seer stones, archaeology, etc.)
I remain open to more evidence. And I could be wrong- could you?
Re: Commenced translating in Sept. 1828.
Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:47 pm
by _Sanctorian
Just like everything in Mormonism, the Book of Mormon translation sounds miraculous until you realize it’s not at all a unique feat.
The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas - 216 pages written in 2 1/2 days.
On The Road - 320 pages written in three weeks.
As I Lay Dying - 400 pages Faulkner wrote this formally inventive masterpiece in less than six weeks while working the night shift at a power plant. Perhaps even more amazingly, he claims he didn’t change a single word.
Casino Royale - 213 pages written in two months.
The Confidential Agent - 247 pages written in 6 weeks.
I’m sure there are many more. There are also plenty of authors that wrote complex books at young ages. Joe’s age and the Book of Mormon translation timeline claims have been reproduced in different settings by different authors. His claims look less divine knowing his feat is in no way unique.
Next argument please.