Reason is Resistance

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_Kishkumen
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Kishkumen »

Res Ipsa wrote:Reverend, being an ex-Mormon atheist, I’d like to agree. But I’ve seen too many counter examples to be very sanguine. I’ve encountered former Mormons who believed in every popular conspiracy theory, including the faked moon landing. There are former Mormons that subscribe to every pseudo scientific and supernatural belief out there: homeothapy, anti-vaccination, ghosts, UFOs, etc.

Here’s what I think goes on. Many former Mormons believe they were lied to and suckered by the church leadership. As a result, they develop a hyperskepticism to all forms of authority. Many times they perceive the LDS leadership as an actual conspiracy that fooled them, reinforcing beliefs in conspiracies. As a result, I’ve seen lots of ex-Mormons who are reflexively contrarian against any consensus position, especially those supported by government, corporations, or authority figures.


Interesting, Res Ipsa. I have not run into these folks. But my experience is limited. That said, I think that on occasion I have ventured into the realm of hyper-skepticism.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Another piece of that, I think, is the notion of what I think of as special truth or secret truth. The LDS church teaches that there accessible truth that explains the big questions common to existence. This is a special truth that only they have, and they will share it with you. I think there is something atteactive, even seductive, in this notion of having special or secret truth. Brains seem to be suckers for it.

When a person gives up mormonusm, they don’t necessarily give up all the ingrained concepts and notions. Their brains can still be seduced by other “special truths” pedaled by contrarians.

Something like that.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Gadianton
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Gadianton »

Kishkumen wrote:There is a way in which this topic crosses over to the neo-apologetic discussion that is going on. In the past it has been pointed out, by myself and others, that Mormonism offers a fictional history. Now, someone like the narrator might argue that Mormonism is entitled to its myths and that these have little to do with the mundane reality we inhabit most of the time. Once we enter the realm of faith, so the line of thought goes, we are talking about something entirely different from history and so we should not place incorrect demands on Joseph Smith and angels with gold plates. To do so would be a category error.

I have some sympathy for this point of view, but then I do not believe that most of the people who believe the Book of Mormon is an ancient record--and this is something that Bert Russell pointed out--make such distinctions. These folks are like those kind individuals who, upon hearing I was going off to get a Ph.D. in Ancient History, got excited that I would be able to learn more about the Book of Mormon. In their minds, there was no difference. God creating the world, an angel with a flaming sword, Jesus walking on water, Nephi and the brass plates, Joseph Smith receiving the gold plates from an angel: all of these things were part of history, not an alternate "language game" called myth, legend, or theology.

And these alternate histories of the world do have consequences. Who can blame the member of the LDS Church who sincerely believes that the time is nigh at hand when President Monson will call upon the saints to settle in Jackson County, Missouri? Why did people seek out archaeological remains of Nephite civilization? People put their faith in such things because they believe the claims are anchored in real-world events. Except that they are not.


This is a tough one because I'm sympathetic to both views. To your point, a couple of days ago, I shot the bull with a guy in my new neighborhood that I run into on my morning walks. He's obviously a pretty right-wing Christian guy. Really nice guy and has done well for himself in life both money and family wise. The conversation turned to money, and he mentioned he lost quite a bit in recent years betting on the stock market. Well, you see, this Christian minister has a program for investing and that was that. He didn't blame the program, he blamed himself for not having the temperament for following it. He seemed to have mentioned the "Christian minister" part to justify himself, that he had every good reason to give it a shot.

I think where I'm sympathetic to myth believing is that I'm extremely skeptical as to what people's beliefs actually are. Case in point: Mormons believe fervently in priesthood blessings, yet, they don't really believe in them. That doesn't mean lack of critical thinking in Mormonism doesn't lead to errors, I think it does, but I don't think it's as straightforward as skeptic societies imagine it. The guy I met on a walk could have had any background and been duped with a different program cover. A key concern is where the the subject matter isn't easily accessible and the consequences aren't immediate. Global warming and world politics are great examples. I'm a fairly good researcher, and it would take me several months of consistent daily study to even get a handle on where the world is at economically today or to understand the basics of global warming enough to discuss that. So take the same poor investigation skills that lead a person to argue for the veracity of healing through faith or NDEs or golden bibles, apply that to an actual complex topic, and the problem is, even an intelligent person who through compartmentalization can save himself from walking off of cliffs or pushing the surgeon out of the room to perform a blessing, can't save himself from contributing to poor policy decisions that affect humanity in the long run.

But there's more, because these examples assume a type of otherwise competent person doing well in life who compartmentalizes his faith. While I think it's rare for a person to lack the intelligence or emotional development to go as far as insist on blessings in time-critical emergency situations where the cost is a doctor doing her job, a lack of sober thought does contribute to poor lifestyle choices and that can be reinforced by religious community and authority. For instance, if a person is overweight and type-II but very spiritual and committed to the faith, then somehow that compensates for having a problem more than it should. So there is certainly a class of the religious who pay a high price for faith.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Res Ipsa wrote:Another piece of that, I think, is the notion of what I think of as special truth or secret truth. The LDS church teaches that there accessible truth that explains the big questions common to existence. This is a special truth that only they have, and they will share it with you. I think there is something atteactive, even seductive, in this notion of having special or secret truth. Brains seem to be suckers for it.

When a person gives up mormonusm, they don’t necessarily give up all the ingrained concepts and notions. Their brains can still be seduced by other “special truths” pedaled by contrarians.

Something like that.


Interesting thoughts. I googled 'Mormon + gnosticism' and got this weird hit:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/fairmor ... t?lang=eng

FairMormon Conference Speaker Identifies a Spiritual Threat (Mormon Gnosticism)


I don't know really how to parse the article out, but the Church advises against esotericism or gnosticism. They basically say the only way to know Jesus is through LDS-approved correlation.

Hoo boy. This ain't the church I grew up with. That's for sure.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Maksutov
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Maksutov »

Res Ipsa wrote:Reverend, being an ex-Mormon atheist, I’d like to agree. But I’ve seen too many counter examples to be very sanguine. I’ve encountered former Mormons who believed in every popular conspiracy theory, including the faked moon landing. There are former Mormons that subscribe to every pseudo scientific and supernatural belief out there: homeothapy, anti-vaccination, ghosts, UFOs, etc.

Here’s what I think goes on. Many former Mormons believe they were lied to and suckered by the church leadership. As a result, they develop a hyperskepticism to all forms of authority. Many times they perceive the LDS leadership as an actual conspiracy that fooled them, reinforcing beliefs in conspiracies. As a result, I’ve seen lots of ex-Mormons who are reflexively contrarian against any consensus position, especially those supported by government, corporations, or authority figures.


Fascinating topic. Hyperskepticism can cross into paranoia. Paranoia becomes a sort of metastasizing of connected dots in noise everywhere. It can be a useful survival trait for an organism in hostile environments, but in a modern society it's a bit, er, incongruous and can distract and stress the organism in negative ways.

As someone long associated with government, and having lived and worked at places accused of all kinds of nefarious conspiracies, I have learned that authorities are more likely to be incompetent than malicious, but watch for both. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Water Dog
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Water Dog »

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_Water Dog
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Water Dog »

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Water Dog wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:When a person gives up mormonusm, they don’t necessarily give up all the ingrained concepts and notions. Their brains can still be seduced by other “special truths” pedaled by contrarians.

I do observe they almost all become democrats. You're probably onto something here.


I’ve interacted with lots of former Mormons over lots of years. It’s simply not the case tha nearly all become democrats. Many that continue as Christians stay Republican. Of those that identify as atheist or agnostic, I’d say most identify as independent or libertarian.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Kishkumen
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Kishkumen »

Res Ipsa wrote:Another piece of that, I think, is the notion of what I think of as special truth or secret truth. The LDS church teaches that there accessible truth that explains the big questions common to existence. This is a special truth that only they have, and they will share it with you. I think there is something atteactive, even seductive, in this notion of having special or secret truth. Brains seem to be suckers for it.

When a person gives up mormonusm, they don’t necessarily give up all the ingrained concepts and notions. Their brains can still be seduced by other “special truths” pedaled by contrarians.

Something like that.


Good point, and I think you are right. I don’t know that I will ever be free of the siren’s call of the secret or special truth. I try to satisfy it with better tools, but I’ll always have the itch for the inside scoop.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Maksutov
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Re: Reason is Resistance

Post by _Maksutov »

Res Ipsa wrote:I’ve interacted with lots of former Mormons over lots of years. It’s simply not the case tha nearly all become democrats. Many that continue as Christians stay Republican. Of those that identify as atheist or agnostic, I’d say most identify as independent or libertarian.

Most of the Democrats I know of any faith affiliation are more or less Presbyterian, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Methodist and Unitarian. Agnostics and atheists seem left/libertarian, suspicious of major groups and dogmas, of whatever source. But, hey, there should be some actual data out there on exmos. John Dehlin?
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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