A few questions for Shulem

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_Shulem
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Shulem Pertinently asked
Why should Smith correct Abraham's original handiwork?


Because Abraham carved it as a man and not as a prophet.... :wink:


Actually, you mean Abraham drew it some 2,000 years after he died and was later carved in modern times by an American artist, Reuben Hedlock.
_Themis
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Themis »

Shulem wrote:Everything you've said is reasonable and seems logical enough considering what we know. However, critics have the same right as do the apologists to leave doors open and consider any plausible avenue which furthers our argument with each and every element that comprises Smith's Book of Abraham.


Sure, but you admit you don't have any evidence to back it up. I prefer where the evidence leads. I don't see a lack of willingness to tear out a section if Joseph wanted to make a certain story, but I see a lack of evidence and motivation. We both agree Joseph was good at making up stories with what he had, and many others around Joseph would have seen this missing section if it did exist when it was brought Kirtland. That is problematic to the idea Joseph later tore out a section he didn't like.

My idea is not my own, but I don't remember where I read it first. It would be interesting to have someone like Chris Smith comment on the missing sections if he knows where they match up to where they were when they were rolled up. I suspect they do. One of the big hits against Joseph was that the missing section is precisely the same area Egyptology had problems with before the papyri was rediscovered. It clearly showed he couldn't recreate the scene correctly, and a really huge hit Egyptology knew what it was talking about.

Now, the carving of the face for Fig. 6 in Facsimile No. 3 is a legitimate concern because the woodwork cuts in front of the face support the idea that a snout was originally there but was hacked off. Have you been able to discern that through high resolution examination? For me, it's like a bloody revelation! Joseph Smith hacked the face off of Anubis and called him a slave! If this is true, it's a game changer and a serious strike against Smith's credibility.


I think you are on to something here. It does look like more of a snout may have been carved in to later be removed. If this can be shown by further analysis this would be another hit against the missing papyri hypothesis. I don't see it being a big hit against Joseph that he may have told him to take off the snout, but that the snout shows a more jackal like head supporting even more that the head in fac 1 would also have been a jackals head. They both come from the same document both sides agree is Joseph's claimed Book of Abraham.
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_Shulem
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

Themis wrote:Sure, but you admit you don't have any evidence to back it up. I prefer where the evidence leads. I don't see a lack of willingness to tear out a section if Joseph wanted to make a certain story, but I see a lack of evidence and motivation. We both agree Joseph was good at making up stories with what he had, and many others around Joseph would have seen this missing section if it did exist when it was brought Kirtland. That is problematic to the idea Joseph later tore out a section he didn't like.

My idea is not my own, but I don't remember where I read it first. It would be interesting to have someone like Chris Smith comment on the missing sections if he knows where they match up to where they were when they were rolled up. I suspect they do. One of the big hits against Joseph was that the missing section is precisely the same area Egyptology had problems with before the papyri was rediscovered. It clearly showed he couldn't recreate the scene correctly, and a really huge hit Egyptology knew what it was talking about.


Let's table it for now and trust that the missing portions were consistent with the extant portions -- conventional Egyptology and funerary iconographic imagery in typical Egyptian expression. The odds that Smith's Facsimile No. 1 is what was on the missing parts of the original are nearly impossible to accept. That would require an utter leap of faith into a world of fantasy.

Shulem wrote:What if there wasn't originally a knife in the hand of the priest in the missing portion of the papyrus as was restored in the Joseph Smith Facsimile? What if the priest was really holding an offering cup? And, to top it off; what if the missing head on the torn papyrus was originally a jackal head and not a human head as Joseph Smith restored?


This or That?

ImageImage

This particular topic in itself deserves it's own thread
_Shulem
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

Themis wrote:I think you are on to something here. It does look like more of a snout may have been carved in to later be removed. If this can be shown by further analysis this would be another hit against the missing papyri hypothesis. I don't see it being a big hit against Joseph that he may have told him to take off the snout, but that the snout shows a more jackal like head supporting even more that the head in fac 1 would also have been a jackals head. They both come from the same document both sides agree is Joseph's claimed Book of Abraham.


I definitely think I'm on to something! I wish others in this thread would open their browsers and offer an opinion. Perhaps no one is paying much attention? This thread is long and may not be very interesting to some but special thanks to Jersey Girl for her comments. Let me tell you, this is the kind of stuff that strikes fear into the hearts and mind's of apologists and it needs to be fleshed out.

Philo, what's your take? Put your atheist stuff down and take a peek, please. Shades, where are you when you're needed? Jesse Pinkman? Anyone? This is not going to just go away. It's going to have to be addressed by the critics and more importantly the apologists.

Woodcut for Facsimile No. 3, Anubis at far left, enlarge and take a peek.
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/facsimile-printing-plates-circa-23-february-16-may-1842/3

Perhaps this topic requires it's own thread with illustrations

jesus, god
_Fence Sitter
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Since facsimile 3 was on the inside of the scroll of Hor it was probably the least damaged section of the scroll since the most damage was to the outer portions of the scroll and those portions at the begining of the scroll most handled by Joseph Smith for his translation. He started his Book of Abraham translation at characters in the section next to facsimile #1 See The Original Length of the Scroll of Hor by Andrew Cook & Christopher Smith.

Since the woodcut of facsimile 3 is very consistent with what we would expect to seen from this type of scene we can assume that facsimile 3 was in pretty good shape when he had it.
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_Philo Sofee
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Dayum! I have never noticed this before at all! That woodcut definitely has lots of little hack marks where the snout should be. It has all the appearance of being taken out by Hedlock. This is HUGE Shulem! Great detective work amigo. It has never been addressed before, and with your other illustration in this thread of Anubis with the one ear and snout, this is most definitely incriminating evidence. Holy cow amazing! I enlarged the woodcut from the church's site, and I'll be go to heck if it doesn't have all the workings of fraud, being changed deliberately to turn Anubis into something he wasn't. No restoration here, but downright destruction. This needs to be written up somehow and published. A Shulem/Philo paper perhaps for Sunstone next year?
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_Philo Sofee
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Philo Sofee »

It gives paid to the claim of this being an impudent fraud as well because nowhere in Egyptian iconography do we *ever* see a human with a dog's ear either. Talk about stupid. Take the snout out, but leave the ear?! Really??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nowhere have we in the ancient Egyptian religion ever seen Anubis as anything other than the God Anubis either. There is no incarnation into human stories of him either. The nose of the human they tried to make look like a nose isn't at all right either, especially compared to the nose on the figure behind the throne... Man all these years and all the sudden THIS jumps out?! Amazing! We still are not done with the BofAbr facsimiles at all..........most fascinating! And Joseph was in charge of the woodcuts, even though Hedlock did the engraving. He indicated what corrections and manipulations Hedlock was going to make. It's not all on Hedlock by any stretch of the imagination. Shulem has the references in this thread for that!

Overall this is a great catch Shulem! YOU should give a Sunstone presentation. I will sit in the audience and applaud and whistle like crazy..... :lol:

Man, I am SOOOOOOO grateful MG asked you those questions and got yer juices flowing! I just hope no one on viewing the woodcut says "But I have faith that the snout of Anubis is there and that is what it actually looked like anciently...." :lol: Cause we have the evidence that refutes that kind of lame brained faith seeking. Thank you to the church for that!
Last edited by Guest on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Dr CamNC4Me
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Philo Sofee wrote:Dayum! I have never noticed this before at all! That woodcut definitely has lots of little hack marks where the snout should be. It has all the appearance of being taken out by Hedlock. This is HUGE Shulem! Great detective work amigo. It has never been addressed before, and with your other illustration in this thread of Anubis with the one ear and snout, this is most definitely incriminating evidence. Holy cow amazing! I enlarged the woodcut from the church's site, and I'll be go to heck if it doesn't have all the workings of fraud, being changed deliberately to turn Anubis into something he wasn't. No restoration here, but downright destruction. This needs to be written up somehow and published. A Shulem/Philo paper perhaps for Sunstone next year?


Now you're talkin'. Look at me.

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Overall this is a great catch Shulem! YOU should give a Sunstone presentation. I will sit in the audience and applaud and whistle like crazy..... :lol:



Shulem.

Do. It.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Philo Sofee
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
Overall this is a great catch Shulem! YOU should give a Sunstone presentation. I will sit in the audience and applaud and whistle like crazy..... :lol:



Shulem.

Do. It.


I'm with Jersey Girl on this one.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
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