Terryl Givens on Joseph Smith's "alleged con gimmicks"

[_moksha]

I have to agree with Givens that "If you do not___________ then an angel with a drawn sword will surely skewer me" has to be ranked as one of the classic pickup lines. It showed both moxie and chutzpah to make such a claim and doing so with a straight face was icing on the licked cake.

No presentism applies in this case since it had a very high success rate. This shows that weaving tangled webs is a highly efficient means to snare prey. "Yea ye chosen brothers, let us prey together."

[_Kishkumen]

I like Givens and I see the value in what he is doing. I can also see why it is completely unimpressive to Philo.

[_mentalgymnast]

I did answer them.

Let me see if I can encapsulate what you might have said.

Givens believes in God and the restoration of the gospel/church (assumption). This assumption causes harm to Mormon youth.

Was this your answer? If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

Regards,
MG

[_deacon blues]

I have to agree with Givens that "If you do not___________ then an angel with a drawn sword will surely skewer me" has to be ranked as one of the classic pickup lines. It showed both moxie and chutzpah to make such a claim and doing so with a straight face was icing on the licked cake.

No presentism applies in this case since it had a very high success rate. This shows that weaving tangled webs is a highly efficient means to snare prey. "Yea ye chosen brothers, let us prey together."

Variations on it are still being used today. “If you don’t marry me I will kill myself” is a threat that sounds similar to if “I I don’t marry more wives, God will destroy me,” or the threat to Emma in D&C 132: “If you don’t accept polygamy, you will be destroyed.”

[_Philo Sofee]

I did answer them.

Let me see if I can encapsulate what you might have said.

Givens believes in God and the restoration of the gospel/church (assumption). This assumption causes harm to Mormon youth.

Was this your answer? If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

Regards,
MG

No you don't have it right, and yes, you know exactly why you don't have it right. Especially since you have already read his book. Now go back and re-read it with a critical mind, not a believing one, and see the difference.

[_deacon blues]

I'll guess Givens may be a threat to the youth church because his "lecture" refers to the "Mormonism Unveiled" tract by Parley Pratt. This will result in many Mormon youth researching and discovering that Parley prophesied that "the overthrow of our government and all other Gentile governments on the on American continent, [and the] the way and means of this utter destruction are clearly foretold; namely the remnant of Jacob (Lamanites/Indians/Native Americans, see 3rd Nephi, chaps. 20-21) will go through among the Gentiles and tear them in pieces like a lion among the flocks of sheep. Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. This destruction includes an utter overthrow, and desolation of all our Cities, Forts, and Strong holds- an entire annihilation of our race, except such as embrace the Covenant and are numbered with Israel."
They will read that Parley further said: "Now Mr Sunderland, you have something definite and tangible, the time, the manner, the means, the names, the dates; and I will state as a prophesy, that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent 50 years hence; and if they are not greatly scourged, and in a great measure overthrown, within five or ten years from this date (1838), the the Book of Mormon will have proven itself false." (Pratt: Mormonism Unveiled)

By the way, now I'm curious about the Givens book. I think I'll get the Kindle version. If I read it and it's not worth it I'll be blaming you guys: Philo and MG.

[_deacon blues]

For what its worth, the Givens book has five times the customer reviews on Amazon as Sherri Dew's biography of Ezra Benson.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

My good pleasure. I try to keep my eye on Givens as he is one of the most adroit, clever, manipulating neo-apologist in the church these days. By his very education he is far more dangerous to the Mormon youth than most others. His suave, debonair use of clever words is titillating to the mind.... until you actually look at his assumptions. It's why I dub his book "The Crucible of Doubt," his most damning book. When you realize through reading it that everything he says about ALL OTHER SYSTEMS seriously HAS to also be used on Mormonism, but he doesn't, it gives his brainwash clever game away. It's pure hypocrisy, and the fundamental cure for it, (and I have touted this many times and will continue to do so) is the outstanding stellar work of John W. Loftus, "The Outsider Test of Faith," the singular most important book to me in seeing my own hypocrisy as an apologist, and it helped set me on the course of seeing the light I see today. NO ONE......in any religion........ can afford to ignore that mighty book of Loftus... no one.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I just downloaded it to my Kindle.

[_Philo Sofee]

My good pleasure. I try to keep my eye on Givens as he is one of the most adroit, clever, manipulating neo-apologist in the church these days. By his very education he is far more dangerous to the Mormon youth than most others. His suave, debonair use of clever words is titillating to the mind.... until you actually look at his assumptions. It's why I dub his book "The Crucible of Doubt," his most damning book. When you realize through reading it that everything he says about ALL OTHER SYSTEMS seriously HAS to also be used on Mormonism, but he doesn't, it gives his brainwash clever game away. It's pure hypocrisy, and the fundamental cure for it, (and I have touted this many times and will continue to do so) is the outstanding stellar work of John W. Loftus, "The Outsider Test of Faith," the singular most important book to me in seeing my own hypocrisy as an apologist, and it helped set me on the course of seeing the light I see today. NO ONE......in any religion........ can afford to ignore that mighty book of Loftus... no one.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I just downloaded it to my Kindle.

I am looking forward to discussing it here on these boards. I too am re-reading it.

[_moksha]

They will read that Parley further said: "Now Mr Sunderland, you have something definite and tangible, the time, the manner, the means, the names, the dates; and I will state as a prophesy, that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent 50 years hence; and if they are not greatly scourged, and in a great measure overthrown, within five or ten years from this date (1838), the Book of Mormon will have proven itself false." (Pratt: Mormonism Unveiled)

Sometimes prophecies are made for the Earth in an alternate dimension, so that cannot be held against the Church.