The single biggest issue in Mormonism- Lucy Walker conundrum

[_Dr Exiled]

Glad to have you back posting, Grindael. I don't know how someone can look at Joseph Smith's polygamy/polyandry and not see it for what it truly was. People cheat on their spouses, unfortunately, and Joseph Smith just slapped a religious edict on his conduct as cover. But being Mormon means lying to oneself over and over again or burying one's head in the sand about many historical issues.

[_Dr Exiled]

Polygamy/polyandry is like a joke I heard a while back. A lawyer got up and started telling the judge about this fantastical tale full of mystery and intrigue where his client was battling the forces of evil while protecting all that we hold dear. The client seemingly risked everything for an altruistic purpose that left everyone in amazement and wonder ...... and that's why he was caught naked in bed with that under age girl .....

[_grindael]

This topic is one of my pet projects, so that's why I took some time to post. I have a 100+ page essay that I have to whittle down for publication on Emma & the 1869 Utah Affidavits. And all of it will be in my Book I'm getting ready to submit to Signature. I have a lot on this, and I guarantee that it will be VERY INTERESTING STUFF.

I (in my opinion) have a very good idea of how it all went down and it has never been told correctly. I hope the evidence I present will back up my theory. Time will tell. Happy New Year, y'all, and I'll try and stop by now and then. I've given out all I can, I have to keep some things close to the vest on this for a while.

[_cwald]

This is Brian Hales response on Facebook to Bill Reel's post concerning Lucy Walker.

The poster could prove to be very effective propaganda, but why not be accurate? My comments below might be dismissed as apologetic mumbo-jumbo, but context enhances understanding and transparency benefits everyone.

“33 The Prophet Joseph had at least 33 wives. The exact number may never be known due to poor record keeping and the secretive nature of celestial marriage”

COMMENT: Joseph Smith was sealed to 35 by my count but at least a third were not marriages on earth but for the next life. That still leaves a high number, but why mislead the audience?

“1833 16 year old housemaid Fanny Alger becomes the Prophet’s first spiritual wife.”

COMMENT: The year 1833 is in error. Fanny Alger did not arrive in Kirtland until very late in 1833 or early 1834. The most likely year for the marriage is 1835 or early 1836. “Spiritual wife” is a loaded term Joseph would have highly criticized.

“A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger’s was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deviated from the COMMENT in the matter- Oliver Cowdrey”

COMMENT: The original word was not “affair” but “scrape.” It is a small point but why not be accurate? Emma Smith and Oliver Cowdery believed it was adultery but those close to Fanny Alger like her parents and the Webbs all considered it a plural marriage. Cowdery is mispelled.

“1836 The Prophet Elijah appears to Joseph and confers the sealing keys upon him.”

COMMENT: Joseph received priesthood authority from Peter, James, and John in 1829 to solemnize time-only marriages approved by God. This authority, rather than sealing authority, was probably used by Levi Hancock when performing the plural ceremony uniting Joseph and Fanny. Some believe the ceremony was a sealing and occurred after April 3, 1836 since the relationship was not discovered until the summer of 1836.

“11 of Joseph’s spiritual wives were under the age of 20”

COMMENT: I count ten. Four were nineteen, three were seventeen, one was sixteen, and two were probably fourteen. Young wives were not uncommon. Illinois Governor Thomas Ford (1842-1846) married Frances Hambaugh in 1828; she was 15 and he was 28. “Spiritual wifery” in John C. Bennett’s teachings described men and women having sex and keeping it secret. It had nothing to do with religion (i.e. not ‘spiritual”) or marriage (i.e. not ‘wifey’) because no ceremonies were performed—no covenants made—no obligations accepted by the parties. Joseph Smith’s celestial marriage ceremonies created eternal spouses and families.

“Jacob 2:24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.”

COMMENT: “For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people” “. . . to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified” (Jacob 2:30; D&C 132:63).

“11 of the Prophet’s wives had living husbands when entering into marriage with Joseph”

COMMENT: This statement implies these women had two husbands at the same time—called polyandry, which never happened nor would it have been sanctioned by Church leaders. These were eternity-only sealings applying only in the next life. There is no credible evidence a woman in Nauvoo ever believed she had two spouses with whom she could have sexual relations without committing adultery (see D&C 132: 41-42, 61-63).

“13 faithful Latter-day Saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him”

COMMENT: This is pure fiction (where do such nonsensical claims come from?). Emily Partridge and Malissa Lott affirmed sexual relations with Joseph Smith while Lucy Walker was evasive in their Temple Lot depositions. Evidence for nine more is circumstantial or secondhand and of varying reliability. Who is the thirteenth?

“14 years old. The ages of Joseph’s youngest brides: Helen Mar Kimball and Nancy Winchester”

COMMENT: We don’t know how old Nancy was, but she may have been 14. The marriages were not consummated so far as we have any evidence. Helen Mar Kimball wrote more defending Joseph Smith and plural marriage than any other woman in the nineteenth century.

“21.5 The average age American women in mid-19th century entered into their first marriage”

COMMENT: There is no evidence Joseph consummated the sealings to his three youngest plural wives. Young marriages were not common, but they also were not scandalous. Jesse Hale, brother to Emma Hale Smith, the Prophet's wife, married Mary McKune when she was fifteen and he twenty-three. Martin Harris, one of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, married his wife Lucy when she was only fifteen. William Clark (of the Lewis and Clark expedition) wed sixteen-year-old Julia Hancock in 1808.

“1835 version D&C section 101:4 ‘Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman, but one husband.”

COMMENT: RLDS Elder David H. Bays complained in 1897: “You may have observed the ingenious phraseology of that part of the document which is designed to convey the impression that the assembly, as well as the entire church, was opposed to polygamy, but which, as a matter of fact, leaves the way open for its introduction and practice. The language I refer to is this:
‘We believe the tone man shall have one wife; and one woman BUT ONE HUSBAND.’ Why use the restrictive adverb in the case of the woman, and ingeniously omit it with reference to the man? Why not employ the same form of words in the one case as in the other? Of the woman it is said she shall have BUT ONE HUSBAND. Why not say of the man, he shall have ‘BUT ONE WIFE except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.” In 1902, LDS Church President Joseph F. Smith made the same observation: “The declaration… that ‘one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband,’ bears the implication that a man might possibly be permitted at some time to have more than one wife, while a woman was to have “but one husband.”

ADDITIONAL: Plural marriage for Nauvoo participants (including Joseph Smith) was a religious practice. Morphing it into something driven by libido misrepresents it historically. Many Nauvoo polygamists reported dreams, visions, impressions, and even angelic visitations supporting them in their prayers to understand and accept the practice.

Happy New Year

Bill Reel wrote:

Did you find it at all odd...he didn’t address the actual question in the original post but simply jumped in to be the accuracy Police. My guess is Brian doesn’t want to be on the record answering that question anymore than any other apologist who hasn’t shown up

[_deacon blues]

This topic is one of my pet projects, so that's why I took some time to post. I have a 100+ page essay that I have to whittle down for publication on Emma & the 1869 Utah Affidavits. And all of it will be in my Book I'm getting ready to submit to Signature. I have a lot on this, and I guarantee that it will be VERY INTERESTING STUFF.

I (in my opinion) have a very good idea of how it all went down and it has never been told correctly. I hope the evidence I present will back up my theory. Time will tell. Happy New Year, y'all, and I'll try and stop by now and then. I've given out all I can, I have to keep some things close to the vest on this for a while.

I'm anxiously awaiting this.....

[_grindael]

cwald, link?

[_cwald]

cwald, link?

This was on Bill Reel's Facebook page. I'm not sure if you can link to s specific quote, but I'll try. Let me see if these links work...

https://www.Facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214912075937879&set=a.1494962936512.66019.1307236400&type=3&theater



It's one of the last comments on the post made on Dec 28th. Here is Bill's post.

Bill Reel
December 28, 2017 at 9:26am ·
Knowing the background of the Lucy Walker story, I am curious how those who both know the story and who are faithful to the restoration and Church authority answer the following question
Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl into a husband/wife dynam...
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