More on Brother Joseph and ancient documents

[Guest]

This thread follows the recent learned discussion, involving Rev. Kishkumen and Prof. Symmachus, on the Egyptian and Greek languages in the Book of Mormon, a discussion which generated many faith-promoting insights.

I wish to put forward for discussion another Greek text that was revealed by the Prophet Joseph, viz. the fragment from St John contained in Doctrine & Covenants 7.

The text reads as follows:

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself.

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

ETA: This is destined to be a pretty obscure thread based on linguistics and biblical criticism, and I apologise in advance to any ignorant apostates who don't share my interest in these things.

[_Johannes]

The first thing to note about this revelation is that Joseph has corrected modern scholarship on an important historical point. Biblical scholars are sceptical about the notion that the New Testament was written on parchment (2 Tim 4.13 probably refers to writings from the Hebrew Bible). Indeed, the Johannine writings in the New Testament themselves expressly refer to their being written on papyrus (2 Jn. 12, διὰ χάρτου). Nevertheless, Joseph's prophetic revelation makes it clear that consensus ideas on this point are wrong.

As to why John would have "hidden up" the parchment in question, it is obvious that the Lord prompted him to do this in order to set up the circumstances for Joseph's prophetic inquiry eighteen centuries later.

[_Johannes]

The text of the revelation itself serves to resolve a question arising out of John 21.23 - did Jesus promise the "beloved disciple" that he would live until the Second Coming? It also resolves the question of who the "beloved disciple" was (i.e. John).

Verses 1-2 and 4-5 of the pericope are broadly consistent with the biblical Johannine writings (indeed, 4 quotes Jn 21.22). There are, however, several verses that require further comment.

Let us begin with verse 3.

At first sight, this would seem to be another typical Johannine verse. Indeed, the phrase "nations, kindreds, tongues and people" reflects Rev. 7.9, which has traditionally been ascribed to St John (modern scholars doubt this ascription, but again, Joseph's revelation has corrected them). Yet there is synoptic language here, too - that is, language from the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, which are generally thought to come from a different tradition from John.

More specifically, the wording "come in my glory" in reference to the Parousia is a synoptic phrase, not a Johannine one.

See, for example, Mark 8.38:

....ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐν τῇ δόξῃ τοῦ Πατρὸς αὐτοῦ

And also Mk 13.26:

....ἐρχόμενον ἐν νεφέλαις μετὰ δυνάμεως πολλῆς καὶ δόξης;

We may presume that the original Greek that John inscribed on his parchment was something like ἕως ἄν ἔλθω ἐν τῇ δόξῃ μου.

Anti-Mormons would no doubt claim that Brother Joseph, being unfamiliar with biblical criticism, simply confused synoptic with Johannine language. Faithful Latter-day Saint scholars obviously cannot accept this apostate idea. Instead, we must draw one of the following conclusions:
1. The synoptic phrasing comes from the ghost committee, who were very familiar with synoptic language.
2. John himself was familiar with the synoptic tradition. Curiously enough, some modern scholars have argued persuasively that John's Gospel presupposes a knowledge of the synoptic gospels. The appearance of synoptic material in a Johannine pericope, as revealed to us by the Prophet Joseph, provides stunning proof of this theory. It goes without saying that Joseph could not possibly have known how his revelation would vindicate a modern scholarly theory in this way, even as it discredited others.

[_Johannes]

Now for verse 6:

I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

There is clearly a literary relationship between this verse and two verses from the Letter to the Hebrews. First, Heb. 1.7:

And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

This is a near-quotation of Ps. 104.4 LXX, which is mistranslated in the KJV. The true meaning is that God makes the winds his servants and flames of fire his messengers.

Now for Heb. 1.14:

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The point of the original text of Ps. 104, which Hebrews is quoting here, is God's soveriegnty over the elements - he makes the winds his angels and flames of fire his messengers. In the D&C text, the structure of the metaphor is changed: it is John who is both a fire and an angel. This is therefore a rather brilliant intertext which is in creative dialogue with other verses of scripture. (Anti-Mormons who see it as a misunderstanding by Joseph based on a KJV mistranslation are simply not clever enough to understand what is going on.)

More importantly - John, in writing his parchment, is remembering that Jesus used wording that later ended up in the Letter to the Hebrews. This casts important light on a major issue in New Testament studies - who wrote Hebrews? Joseph's revelation raises the intriguing possibility that it was written by John, the beloved disciple. This possibility surely merits further exploration by Interpreter Foundation scholars.

[_Johannes]

And, to finish:

Verse 7 uses another synoptic phrase, "keys of this ministry" (the metaphor goes back to Isaiah 22.22). This clearly echoes "keys of the kingdom of heaven" in Mt 16.19. It also echoes Acts 1.17: "he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry".

The original text written by John on his parchment was probably something like δώσω τὰς κλεῖδας τῆς διακονίας ταύτης, or perhaps τῆς λειτουργίας ταύτης.

As for verse 8, the use of the word "both" raises the exciting prospect that Koine Greek preserved the dual number (i.e. a grammatical form used for two entities, which supplements the more familiar singular and plural). Another authentic detail that Brother Joseph has restored in refutation of godless modern scholarship.

[_Meadowchik]

The first thing to note about this revelation is that Joseph has corrected modern scholarship on an important historical point. Biblical scholars are sceptical about the notion that the New Testament was written on parchment (2 Tim 4.13 probably refers to writings from the Hebrew Bible). Indeed, the Johannine writings in the New Testament themselves expressly refer to their being written on papyrus (2 Jn. 12, διὰ χάρτου). Nevertheless, Joseph's prophetic revelation makes it clear that consensus ideas on this point are wrong.

As to why John would have "hidden up" the parchment in question, it is obvious that the Lord prompted him to do this in order to set up the circumstances for Joseph's prophetic inquiry eighteen centuries later.

Okay, so you mean that because Joseph said "parchment," that now we know the New Testament scholars are wrong? You are basing this purely on the ostensible translation of the parchment that Joseph never actually saw, correct?

If so, then, Johannes, the claim that Joseph has corrected anything is unverified. Furthermore, since it was commonplace in colonial America for important documents to be produced on parchment, it could naturally follow for Joseph to imagine the use of parchment in older times, when of course, it wasn't thought to be with brass or gold plates.

[_Johannes]

Okay, so you mean that because Joseph said "parchment," that now we know the New Testament scholars are wrong? You are basing this purely on the ostensible translation of the parchment that Joseph never actually saw, correct?

When you put it like that, you make it sound ridiculous.

[_Meadowchik]

Okay, so you mean that because Joseph said "parchment," that now we know the New Testament scholars are wrong? You are basing this purely on the ostensible translation of the parchment that Joseph never actually saw, correct?

When you put it like that, you make it sound ridiculous.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying. Could you please answer my questions? Feel free to reword in your own answer if that would help! :)

[_Runtu]

I'm trying to understand what you're saying. Could you please answer my questions? Feel free to reword in your own answer if that would help! :)

I'm pretty sure this is satire.

[_Meadowchik]

I'm trying to understand what you're saying. Could you please answer my questions? Feel free to reword in your own answer if that would help! :)

I'm pretty sure this is satire.

If so, I am relieved. I do not know Johannes enough to be able to tell.