Water Dog wrote:Every year when my kids do sports and I signup to help with the team or coach they run a background check on me.
What about the dad who has something on his criminal record that automatically disqualifies him from filling a position and playing sports with his own son?
"Sorry son, I'm a felon. I did something long ago before I met your mom and joined the church so I can't serve on the team or teach kids."
There are so many examples that will wreak havoc in present day Mormonism. Gossip and shame will be the result. A lot of people are going to get out of Mormonism before they subject themselves to this kind of cultural stigma.
Everyone in the ward is going to find out that I'm unworthy to teach kids because I can't pass the background test. How am I going to tell the bishop and especially since everyone knows he wants to call me to the position? What will grandma think? My girlfriend? I can't go back to church. I just can't . . . .
I can't pass the security background check because of what happened 10 years ago even though the bishop in the last ward said I was forgiven and it wouldn't effect my standing with the Lord or his church. How am I going to hide this from the ward members and my own family? I can't teach primary and ward members are going to know I'm unworthy. They won't even consider me for leadership. I just can't take it. I don't think I can keep this up.
Paul I could have probably predicted that you'd raise the issues that you just did. I left my statements open to it.
I want to make comment and please know that what I have to say is probably true of many or most church cultures to some degree, but I do think it's heightened in the LDS church. Also keep in mind that I am someone who left my own church primarily because I became frustrated with human nature that put me repeated conflict. That's why I often say that churches would be okay were it not for the people in them. I can't help myself. I can't remain in conflict for extended periods. I do better and have more peace on my own in maintaining a positive attitude towards others and feeling that my spirit is freed up to extend the support that I want to give to others, outside of organized religion than I ever had as part of a congregation.
Full disclosure: I left my own church for three reasons. (Yes, I'm doing a little self purging here)
1) Attitudes towards teaching about LDS. After many one:one conversation's with my pastors about my relationship with LDS folks, I attended a "cult class" for youth and when the youth pastor spoke in condescending ways about LDS missionaries, I raised my hand, got on my feet and opposed it.
2) A building campaign to which I'd already contributed via my teaching salary which was basically jack. Folks visited me in summer about more contributions (I'll never forget this) and when I told them I had no income in summer, they asked me if my Catholic husband couldn't contribute. That crossed a line with me.
3) The final straw was when the preschool choir leader that I assisted was moving away and on her last day, NOT ONE church leader dropped in to thank her. I watched folks through the window of the classroom door busily walking past the classroom, smiles on their faces about whatever, and not one of them stopped to thank her including one of the workers who was overseeing youth activities. The following Wed. I stayed home. I got a call from the church asking me where I was and wasn't I coming to choir. I told them that I didn't get any word about a replacement teacher and assumed that choir had discontinued. Whereupon she told me "We thought that you would take over". I told her that no one had discussed this with me and that I wasn't equipped or trained to teach music.
I was pissed in a way that I cannot describe here. The rudeness, the lack of communication, the absence of appreciation for the outgoing choir teacher who was so generous of her time and talent, the overstepping of bounds regarding the building campaign, the immature attitude of the youth pastor who had a strong desire to teach the youth about Mormonism but couldn't conceal his sense of self superiority, all came rushing back to me and all the way back to my debate with the previous youth pastor after one of his youth leaders offended an LDS child and sent her home in tears and conversations with the Senior Pastor about various things and the church's outright refusal to participate in a community Christmas Carol project I was working on wherein I invited all churches to participate--my church refused because they didn't want to be seen alongside LDS to avoid the appearance of evil.
I knew there was no going back for me. Point of no return. Over and done with. See ya.
Thanks for wading through my purge there. I have a need to talk about it some times just like you all need to share your own experiences.
Back to LDS issues. If my observations and experience with LDS in real life and on this board over the years are any indication (and I think they are), what I see is a church culture that one one hand provides for a wholesome upbringing and environment for families, but under the surface are bubbling negative elements: fear, shame, and pride in the form of elitist attitudes.
Fear that one cannot achieve their spiritual goals and reach their much hoped for eternal destination themselves or that they will be separated in the eternities due to non-belief by themselves or family members.
Shame in the sense that just as you illustrated, that if they aren't "worthy" they will be visbily detected by other church members and lose their respect, their relationships, be gossiped about, their children not permitted to play with theirs, and every other darn form of shunning and embarrassment you can dream up.
Elitist in the sense that "I am worthy and you are not"
If you could remove the elitist attitude, you might be able to develop a church culture that embraces, supports and encircles the "sinner" instead of pushing them away.
This breaks my heart that the religion has allowed itself to be so twisted away from it's claims of love, kindness, and working to become more Christlike. When confronted with an adulterous woman, Christ himself, defended her against the mob (Let he who is without sin cast the first stone) and simply instructed her--Go thou and sin no more.
The many instances of leading by example by Christ himself have faded into the background in favor of a system that perpetuates little overall love to it's members and replaces it with fear, shame, condemnation, and isolation.
What else needs to be said?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Jersey Girl wrote:I knew there was no going back for me. Point of no return. Over and done with. See ya.
Which I may add is much easier to do in a Christian church that is geared for volunteers and doesn't seek to control every aspect of one's life such as Mormonism does.
But Mormonism is a whole different animal. Mormonism is all about conforming and being called to serve and accepting the calling which is given by revelation. Mormonism is all about being found worthy and living the kind of life that the leaders deem appropriate. It's all about conforming to the program at hand and giving absolute obedience -- no murmuring accepted, just faithful acceptance to whatever the church says.
The LDS church is really in for some difficult times ahead. But the church made its bed and has to lie in it. The problem for the church is that the bed is getting more and more uncomfortable and less people will be willing to abide such discomfort.
Jersey Girl wrote:I knew there was no going back for me. Point of no return. Over and done with. See ya.
Which I may add is much easier to do in a Christian church that is geared for volunteers and doesn't seek to control every aspect of one's life such as Mormonism does.
I know. Mormonism is incredibly invasive. When I see my former church folks (from when it was just a little church congregation) in public we still share affection and interest in each other's family.
But Mormonism is a whole different animal. Mormonism is all about conforming and being called to serve and accepting the calling which is given by revelation.
We have a similar but different view of callings that is based on personal revelation if you will. Moving of the Spirit is how we might describe it. The spiritual tap on the shoulder is what I often call it.
Mormonism is all about being found worthy and living the kind of life that the leaders deem appropriate. It's all about conforming to the program at hand and giving absolute obedience -- no murmuring accepted, just faithful acceptance to whatever the church says.
I think that after all these years, you know the difference in other churches. The difference being that you could easily take out the words "leaders" and "church" in your sentences and replace them with God or Jesus. We're not under surveillance by anyone in the church. The obedience is to God, not a physical church. Somehow all of these concepts have been absorbed by the LDS church to the point where the church means the same thing as God, the authority conferred on the church and likewise, obedience to it. I'm suspect this culturally goes back to Joseph.
I've never once referred to my own church as "the Church". I use that term capitalized here out of respect for LDS and their terminology.
The LDS church is really in for some difficult times ahead. But the church made its bed and has to lie in it. The problem for the church is that the bed is getting more and more uncomfortable and less people will be willing to abide such discomfort.
Years and years ago, on another board, I said that I thought the only way the LDS could ever change would be via a groundswell grassroots movement. Maybe Sam Young is one of those cogs in the wheel of movement followed by movement that will transform the Church--or noticeably reduce it's membership numbers.
I hope there is change. The church experience could be so much richer for LDS.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Jersey Girl wrote:Paul I could have probably predicted that you'd raise the issues that you just did. I left my statements open to it.
I want to make comment and please know that what I have to say is probably true of many or most church cultures to some degree, but I do think it's heightened in the LDS church. Also keep in mind that I am someone who left my own church primarily because I became frustrated with human nature that put me repeated conflict. That's why I often say that churches would be okay were it not for the people in them. I can't help myself. I can't remain in conflict for extended periods. I do better and have more peace on my own in maintaining a positive attitude towards others and feeling that my spirit is freed up to extend the support that I want to give to others, outside of organized religion than I ever had as part of a congregation.
Full disclosure: I left my own church for three reasons. (Yes, I'm doing a little self purging here)
1) Attitudes towards teaching about LDS. After many one:one conversation's with my pastors about my relationship with LDS folks, I attended a "cult class" for youth and when the youth pastor spoke in condescending ways about LDS missionaries, I raised my hand, got on my feet and opposed it.
2) A building campaign to which I'd already contributed via my teaching salary which was basically jack. Folks visited me in summer about more contributions (I'll never forget this) and when I told them I had no income in summer, they asked me if my Catholic husband couldn't contribute. That crossed a line with me.
3) The final straw was when the preschool choir leader that I assisted was moving away and on her last day, NOT ONE church leader dropped in to thank her. I watched folks through the window of the classroom door busily walking past the classroom, smiles on their faces about whatever, and not one of them stopped to thank her including one of the workers who was overseeing youth activities. The following Wed. I stayed home. I got a call from the church asking me where I was and wasn't I coming to choir. I told them that I didn't get any word about a replacement teacher and assumed that choir had discontinued. Whereupon she told me "We thought that you would take over". I told her that no one had discussed this with me and that I wasn't equipped or trained to teach music.
I was pissed in a way that I cannot describe here. The rudeness, the lack of communication, the absence of appreciation for the outgoing choir teacher who was so generous of her time and talent, the overstepping of bounds regarding the building campaign, the immature attitude of the youth pastor who had a strong desire to teach the youth about Mormonism but couldn't conceal his sense of self superiority, all came rushing back to me and all the way back to my debate with the previous youth pastor after one of his youth leaders offended an LDS child and sent her home in tears and conversations with the Senior Pastor about various things and the church's outright refusal to participate in a community Christmas Carol project I was working on wherein I invited all churches to participate--my church refused because they didn't want to be seen alongside LDS to avoid the appearance of evil.
I knew there was no going back for me. Point of no return. Over and done with. See ya.
Thanks for wading through my purge there. I have a need to talk about it some times just like you all need to share your own experiences.
Back to LDS issues. If my observations and experience with LDS in real life and on this board over the years are any indication (and I think they are), what I see is a church culture that one one hand provides for a wholesome upbringing and environment for families, but under the surface are bubbling negative elements: fear, shame, and pride in the form of elitist attitudes.
Fear that one cannot achieve their spiritual goals and reach their much hoped for eternal destination themselves or that they will be separated in the eternities due to non-belief by themselves or family members.
Shame in the sense that just as you illustrated, that if they aren't "worthy" they will be visbily detected by other church members and lose their respect, their relationships, be gossiped about, their children not permitted to play with theirs, and every other darn form of shunning and embarrassment you can dream up.
Elitist in the sense that "I am worthy and you are not"
If you could remove the elitist attitude, you might be able to develop a church culture that embraces, supports and encircles the "sinner" instead of pushing them away.
This breaks my heart that the religion has allowed itself to be so twisted away from it's claims of love, kindness, and working to become more Christlike. When confronted with an adulterous woman, Christ himself, defended her against the mob (Let he who is without sin cast the first stone) and simply instructed her--Go thou and sin no more.
The many instances of leading by example by Christ himself have faded into the background in favor of a system that perpetuates little overall love to it's members and replaces it with fear, shame, condemnation, and isolation.
What else needs to be said?
Brilliant...and I so admire you. I admire most that you know who you are and the boundaries are in place with your own morals. You rock.
Live stream happening right now. If you can check in or watch later, listen to Mindy (?) wearing a pink top, long hair, glasses. Active LDS, young married member, posing questions about mental health and LGBTQ members, questioning grace vs punishment.
ETA: Another young active LDS woman before her inquiring as to what the protest was about. Currently a Never who visits local Wards making comment.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Jersey Girl wrote:Live stream happening right now. If you can check in or watch later, listen to Mindy (?) wearing a pink top, long hair, glasses. Active LDS, young married member, posing questions about mental health and LGBTQ members, questioning grace vs punishment.
ETA: Another young active LDS woman before her inquiring as to what the protest was about. Currently a Never who visits local Wards making comment.
Supporters of Sam have referred to Sam as "faithful member", though his Stake President labeled him apostate, so when supporter of Sam refers to themselves as active it is suspicious as what the person means.
