FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

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_Runtu
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Runtu »

Kishkumen wrote:Interesting intel has come to light on the extent to which Mopologists might be said to fall short of Christian standards in their anger toward fellow Mormon scholars.

At the most recent FAIRMormon Conference, John Gee said the following in his presentation:

There is more evidence for the Book of Abraham than the Documentary Hypothesis.


Which caused the irascible Midgley to erupt with:

”BOKOVOY!!!!


This kind of rage is not, as the evidence indicates, rare.

Some time ago, at another FAIRMormon Conference, DCP showed a slide bearing a quote from Loyd Ericson, at which sight the Mopologists collectively shouted, “GET HIM!!!

Other board participants have their accounts to share. Who can forget Midgley’s bad behavior at the Tanners’ bookstore or at Deseret Book? Many more incidents come to mind. I thought it important, however, to document these events for Cassius’ database of Mopologists behaving badly. If ever you wonder why the Maxwell Institute marginalized Mopologetics, review these records and wonder no more.


OK, that's just nuts on many levels. First, what the hell is Gee smoking to make such an absurd statement? The sad thing about Midgley's outburst isn't that it's so crazy (which it is) but that it's entirely in keeping with his character. I do not want to be an angry old man at his age. Life is way too short to be that bitter.
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_Philo Sofee
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Shulem
It gets me so freaking worked up when I encounter such intellectual dishonesty from Mormonism as a whole. It just sets me off. Their apologetics is so blatantly dishonest -- it's utterly immoral. It makes me scream and lash out like a crazy man, I know.


But it need not be that way. You are much stronger, and vastly more effective when you calmly present the evidence that refutes their claims. Be solid, be scholarly, don't be shrill. It strengthens their testimony, believe it or not, when you are shrill and lash out.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Runtu
OK, that's just nuts on many levels. First, what the hell is Gee smoking to make such an absurd statement? The sad thing about Midgley's outburst isn't that it's so crazy (which it is) but that it's entirely in keeping with his character. I do not want to be an angry old man at his age. Life is way too short to be that bitter.


Because Midgley cannot possibly actually believe what he says when he defends Joseph Smith and Mormonism, he is far and away too smart for that, so he needs reassurance in group think, and that ends up making you cranky when others disagree, even when done so agreeably. The need people to think alike and believe alike or else their paranoia overwhelms them. They are taught to follow not think. Midgley was intelligent enough and well read enough to think, and see through it, but now shrinks back in fear of confronting truth, so he lashes out at others who are not so cowardly. It's perfectly obvious actually. But, there is no way I could have seen it being an insider apologist, and neither can he. He is asleep and needs to awaken, and only life experiences can do that. So I now grasp that I really don't have to take much of what he says all that seriously, because deep down, his actions betray his own sense of fear that he is wrong.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Runtu
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Runtu »

Philo Sofee wrote:Because Midgley cannot possibly actually believe what he says when he defends Joseph Smith and Mormonism, he is far and away too smart for that, so he needs reassurance in group think, and that ends up making you cranky when others disagree, even when done so agreeably. The need people to think alike and believe alike or else their paranoia overwhelms them. They are taught to follow not think. Midgley was intelligent enough and well read enough to think, and see through it, but now shrinks back in fear of confronting truth, so he lashes out at others who are not so cowardly. It's perfectly obvious actually. But, there is no way I could have seen it being an insider apologist, and neither can he. He is asleep and needs to awaken, and only life experiences can do that. So I now grasp that I really don't have to take much of what he says all that seriously, because deep down, his actions betray his own sense of fear that he is wrong.


for what it's worth, you were never angry or intolerant when you were in full apologist mode. I've said it before, but people don't change their personalities and values when they leave the church, despite what Joseph Smith taught about us terrible apostates. I once told Kevin Graham in person that he was kind of an asshole online before he left the church, and he was still kind of an asshole online now. He laughed.

But I do think you're right that the angriest apologists (for any ideology or organization) tend to be those who are genuinely afraid they are mistaken.
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_Philo Sofee
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Runtu
But I do think you're right that the angriest apologists (for any ideology or organization) tend to be those who are genuinely afraid they are mistaken.


Fundamentally so! And, it is why they cannot actually love others. They cannot actually follow Jesus, but instead only a merely human prescribed set of rules and laws that are attributed to a deity of some kind or another. The essence of the Pharisees, caught up in the legalities, and missing the entire spirit of the loving enterprise. It follows rather logically that they get very angrily judgmental, oh my how they judge! Judgers can't love, they are too busy judging, condemning, and mocking others who grasp the situations differently, through no malice, they just see it differently. A righteous one simply cannot stand for diversity, there must be conformity of thought and lifestyle or one is evil, most positively to be reviled. i.e., Mormon apologetics. A Mormon apologists default is we are right and righteous, therefor, by definition, if you are different, you cannot be so. It's an entire sham how its pulled off. Bokovoy is only their latest victim, and I can prophecy he won't be the last. There will never be a last.
They are in Abraham's position in the wonderful story of how he threw out a lone traveler since that traveler did not believe in his God. God came and chided Abraham saying "I have put up with his unbelief all these years, what's your problem?" Abraham immediately repented and took the stranger in and few and clothed him. Hell will freeze over before you see apologetics do that with their own incorrectly perceived "enemies of the faith."
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Runtu
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Runtu »

Philo Sofee wrote:Fundamentally so! And, it is why they cannot actually love others. They cannot actually follow Jesus, but instead only a merely human prescribed set of rules and laws that are attributed to a deity of some kind or another. The essence of the Pharisees, caught up in the legalities, and missing the entire spirit of the loving enterprise. It follows rather logically that they get very angrily judgmental, oh my how they judge! Judgers can't love, they are too busy judging, condemning, and mocking others who grasp the situations differently, through no malice, they just see it differently. A righteous one simply cannot stand for diversity, there must be conformity of thought and lifestyle or one is evil, most positively to be reviled. i.e., Mormon apologetics. A Mormon apologists default is we are right and righteous, therefor, by definition, if you are different, you cannot be so. It's an entire sham how its pulled off. Bokovoy is only their latest victim, and I can prophecy he won't be the last. There will never be a last.
They are in Abraham's position in the wonderful story of how he threw out a lone traveler since that traveler did not believe in his God. God came and chided Abraham saying "I have put up with his unbelief all these years, what's your problem?" Abraham immediately repented and took the stranger in and few and clothed him. Hell will freeze over before you see apologetics do that with their own incorrectly perceived "enemies of the faith."


To be fair, it's not just some mopologists who act this way. If you've ever spent much time around hardcore exmo groups, there are some people who cannot tolerate even the slightest suggestion that there's anything good about the church. It's human nature for those motivated by fear to be the most intolerant of other opinions.
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_Philo Sofee
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Runtu wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:Fundamentally so! And, it is why they cannot actually love others. They cannot actually follow Jesus, but instead only a merely human prescribed set of rules and laws that are attributed to a deity of some kind or another. The essence of the Pharisees, caught up in the legalities, and missing the entire spirit of the loving enterprise. It follows rather logically that they get very angrily judgmental, oh my how they judge! Judgers can't love, they are too busy judging, condemning, and mocking others who grasp the situations differently, through no malice, they just see it differently. A righteous one simply cannot stand for diversity, there must be conformity of thought and lifestyle or one is evil, most positively to be reviled. i.e., Mormon apologetics. A Mormon apologists default is we are right and righteous, therefor, by definition, if you are different, you cannot be so. It's an entire sham how its pulled off. Bokovoy is only their latest victim, and I can prophecy he won't be the last. There will never be a last.
They are in Abraham's position in the wonderful story of how he threw out a lone traveler since that traveler did not believe in his God. God came and chided Abraham saying "I have put up with his unbelief all these years, what's your problem?" Abraham immediately repented and took the stranger in and few and clothed him. Hell will freeze over before you see apologetics do that with their own incorrectly perceived "enemies of the faith."


To be fair, it's not just some mopologists who act this way. If you've ever spent much time around hardcore exmo groups, there are some people who cannot tolerate even the slightest suggestion that there's anything good about the church. It's human nature for those motivated by fear to be the most intolerant of other opinions.


An entirely fair observation. Diversity terrifies we humans. We would make the entire world bland, banal, and vanilla and be comfortable, whether in thought or action. Can you imagine if one had the power to outlaw all trees except weeping willows, and destroyed all other kinds of trees, what a bore the world would be? Or say, by law only one book with specified words was ever allowed to be written and read, all else never showing up again? After 3-6 readings who would read anymore? Or if all people except 6' 5" Asians were allowed to live on earth, all others were killed off? What a bore having everyone with the exact same replica automobile to drive, and all others banned! Or we all had to, by the Lord's law, wear the exact same kind of clothing. What if all artists everywhere were allowed to only paint one painting, and that exactly prescribed how? It would kill our spirits to be conformist in these manners. I mean I could find myriads of examples as analogies for why the religious enterprise of making everyone conform is just positively the most terrifying aspect of religion, and Mormonism is one of the more heinous means of attempting to accomplish this, both intellectually and physically.
Dr CamNC4Me
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_Tom
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Tom »

I transcribed a portion of the address (5:51-11:30) and made a few annotations to identify some writers quoted by Gee. I'd be interested to know the identities of the two unidentified reviewers that Gee quotes below:

Gee:
In a recent article, one author [Joseph Spencer] chides ... those who "have almost universally assumed the ancient historicity of the Book of Mormon and so have staged their arguments ... by drawing on its ancient bearings," since he claims that those particular features of the text, like its genre, "would be all the more apparent to those uninterested in the Book of Mormon’s claim[s] to an ancient origin." Now I'm going to quibble a little bit here. I'm not sure that--I grant that those who aren't interested in the Book of Mormon's claims to ancient origins may see things differently. I'm not sure that this is necessarily an advantage. In the particular case of genre where this person is invoking, the first person to notice the genre in question was an ardent defender of the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon and no one else in the previous 120 years noticed this particular genre, especially those who weren't interested in the Book of Mormon as an ancient book. But, while I think the argument is flawed, the important thing is that he's arguing that the Book of Mormon is--that believing that the Book of Mormon is ancient is a handicap to understanding the text. Those who don't care about whether it's ancient have an advantage in understanding.

Now, moving on to a different case, one reviewer praises another author for disposing of "the old bugbear of historicity in studies of LDS scripture by casting Joseph Smith as heir to a long tradition of anachronistic revision by allusion that includes the authors of Second Isaiah and Deuteronomy."

Another reviewer took a different view of the exact same author of the exact same book: "It is over this point that some of the writer's audience--assuming an audience composed at least partially of believing Latter-day Saints--may balk because they may feel that his thesis hews too closely to the claims of anti-LDS writings, which for years have claimed that Joseph Smith, rather than ancient prophets, is the actual author of the Book of Mormon."

A non-Mormon individual doing Mormon studies [John Turner] notes the perpetual issue of the Book of Mormon's authenticity: "When it comes to the New Testament, one might debate whether the Gospel of John dates to the late first century or to the early second century, but no one questions that it is indeed an ancient text. With the Book of Mormon (and the books of Moses and Abraham), one debates millennia, not decades." He notes that "the fact that the vast majority of my students do not accept the Book of Mormon as an ancient text makes many reluctant to" even "discuss the use of the Book of Mormon by both nineteenth-century and contemporary Latter-day Saints."

This is only to show that the issue of historical authenticity has not gone away, even if some wish it would. The subject has a long history in the church. It was addressed in general conference back in 1874 by Orson Pratt. And it still continues with us today. Now, to be sure, some of these writers were children back when the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon was a hot-button issue, but some of them have also bragged about how they have not bothered to read the previous scholarly work on the Book of Mormon. I'm not sure that's something to brag about.

A generation ago, an apostle [Dallin Oaks] actually weighed in on the issue. At that time he noted that "[s]ome who term themselves believing Latter-day Saints are advocating that Latter-day Saints should 'abandon claims that [the Book of Mormon] is a historical record of the ancient peoples of the Americas.' They are promoting the feasibility of reading and using the Book of Mormon as nothing more than a pious fiction with some valuable contents."

One difference now is that instead of openly advocating abandoning the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon, some Latter-day Saints are merely advocating that the issue is unimportant and can, or should, be set aside. Others [Rosalynde Welch] praise "attempts [by Joseph Spencer in An Other Testament] to disarm the contentious question of the book’s historicity ... through more audacious attempt to deconstruct the very premise of the question."

Now, the apostle who weighed in on the issue back in 1993, Dallin H. Oaks, now a member of the First Presidency, termed "[t]he historicity—historical authenticity—of the Book of Mormon" to be a fundamental issue related to "faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

The term fundamental refers to the foundation of an intellectual position and thus something that is important and cannot be set aside. Whether it is wise to deconstruct a fundamental issue is an intriguing question. Elder Oaks went on to say that "the issue of the historicity of the Book of Mormon is basically a difference between those who rely exclusively on scholarship and those who rely on a combination of scholarship, faith, and revelation. Those who rely exclusively on scholarship reject revelation and fulfill Nephi’s prophecy that in the last days men 'shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.'"

Since the issue is fundamental, I think it may be worth exploring.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac
_Shulem
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Shulem
It gets me so freaking worked up when I encounter such intellectual dishonesty from Mormonism as a whole. It just sets me off. Their apologetics is so blatantly dishonest -- it's utterly immoral. It makes me scream and lash out like a crazy man, I know.


But it need not be that way. You are much stronger, and vastly more effective when you calmly present the evidence that refutes their claims. Be solid, be scholarly, don't be shrill. It strengthens their testimony, believe it or not, when you are shrill and lash out.


Oh yes, there certainly is some truth to what you're saying. But in the moment they start flexing their testimony muscle I'll simply shoot back with Facsimile No. 3 and watch them go limp. It works every time. It's my slam dunk and oh how I love it. I like to stabs them in the eyes with Facsimile No. 3. and watch them bleed.

Image

:lol:
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Re: FAIRMormon Conference: Mopologists Unhinged

Post by _Kishkumen »

At the same time, I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for Bokovoy. Boy, he sure has let himself be taken for quite a ride, hasn't he? From the sounds of it, he's still in the church? If the youtube comments are to be trusted, just months ago he was apparently teaching seminary and bearing witness to the historicity of the Book of Mormon to young impressionable minds. SMH. He's an Uncle Tom. After all this, they still own him. He helps them spread the disease and enslave others.


I don't think Bokovoy wants you to feel sorry for him. He did what he did according to the dictates of his own conscience. He was not, to my knowledge, testifying of the historicity of the Book of Mormon and arguing against that historicity at the same time. He worked with his superiors at CES to navigate a difficult situation with integrity. I agree with you that he is kind of a softy in the best sense of the word. He cares about others. He works hard to be a great teacher. He is a sharp fellow whose scholarship is top notch.

The contradictions of Bokovoy's situation are the contradictions of the life of any non-fundamentalist Mormon working for CES. It is a difficult, and perhaps untenable, situation. Bokovoy did not start his CES career as a non-literalist. He ended up there as a result of his education and scholarship. I think there were folks in CES who genuinely wanted him to work things out and stay. But how does this really work in the end? It can't under the current LDS Church culture.

Does that mean he should have bailed out on CES right away? I don't think so. He did a lot of good for the LDS kids he worked with right up to the point that he had to leave. I don't know that there is an ideal way to negotiate this treacherous terrain. My feeling is that he can hold his head high for making the best of a bad situation.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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