Evil exists

[_peacemaker]

There are only two powers in the universe: the priesthood and the power of Satan. In August of 1977 the Hodgson family was being haunted by a demonic force. The family was terrified and the haunting lasted for months. Two police officers did witness a chair moving on its own in the Hodgson residence. You blind anti-Mormons automatically believe police officers, so I take it that you anti-Mormons won't have a problem believing the Brimsdown police. A girl from the Hodgson family was possessed by a demon and you can hear a recording of her demonic voice on the Enfield Poltergeist Nationwide Special. The evidence that evil exists abounds. I know the power of God is real because I have witnessed it in my life, but I must be careful because the other side exists.

[_Maksutov]

How do you know they weren't aliens from antiKolob?

[_The Soap Maker]

There are only two powers in the universe: the priesthood and the power of Satan. In August of 1977 the Hodgson family was being haunted by a demonic force. The family was terrified and the haunting lasted for months. Two police officers did witness a chair moving on its own in the Hodgson residence. You blind anti-Mormons automatically believe police officers, so I take it that you anti-Mormons won't have a problem believing the Brimsdown police. A girl from the Hodgson family was possessed by a demon and you can hear a recording of her demonic voice on the Enfield Poltergeist Nationwide Special. The evidence that evil exists abounds. I know the power of God is real because I have witnessed it in my life, but I must be careful because the other side exists.

Wait, is this another "test"?

[_peacemaker]

There are only two powers in the universe: the priesthood and the power of Satan. In August of 1977 the Hodgson family was being haunted by a demonic force. The family was terrified and the haunting lasted for months. Two police officers did witness a chair moving on its own in the Hodgson residence. You blind anti-Mormons automatically believe police officers, so I take it that you anti-Mormons won't have a problem believing the Brimsdown police. A girl from the Hodgson family was possessed by a demon and you can hear a recording of her demonic voice on the Enfield Poltergeist Nationwide Special. The evidence that evil exists abounds. I know the power of God is real because I have witnessed it in my life, but I must be careful because the other side exists.

Wait, is this another "test"?

Use your god given brain to tell.

[_Stem]

There are only two powers in the universe: the priesthood and the power of Satan. In August of 1977 the Hodgson family was being haunted by a demonic force. The family was terrified and the haunting lasted for months. Two police officers did witness a chair moving on its own in the Hodgson residence. You blind anti-Mormons automatically believe police officers, so I take it that you anti-Mormons won't have a problem believing the Brimsdown police. A girl from the Hodgson family was possessed by a demon and you can hear a recording of her demonic voice on the Enfield Poltergeist Nationwide Special. The evidence that evil exists abounds. I know the power of God is real because I have witnessed it in my life, but I must be careful because the other side exists.

How do you know you aren't being influenced by the other side right now? Maybe God has been trying to reach you but he sees you are stuck in chains being drug to hell? I sure hope not. That'd unpleasant.

[_toon]

There are only two powers in the universe: the priesthood and the power of Satan. In August of 1977 the Hodgson family was being haunted by a demonic force. The family was terrified and the haunting lasted for months. Two police officers did witness a chair moving on its own in the Hodgson residence. You blind anti-Mormons automatically believe police officers, so I take it that you anti-Mormons won't have a problem believing the Brimsdown police. A girl from the Hodgson family was possessed by a demon and you can hear a recording of her demonic voice on the Enfield Poltergeist Nationwide Special. The evidence that evil exists abounds. I know the power of God is real because I have witnessed it in my life, but I must be careful because the other side exists.

Meh. I give this 2/10.

[_Fence Sitter]

Meh

I know, right?

Just when we are expecting something interesting, he comes up with "Evil Exists".

Come on PM this isn't up to your usual efforts. You can do better.

[_The Soap Maker]

Wait, is this another "test"?

Use your god given brain to tell.

Nope, I'm going to use a more reliable source. I'll use the holy ghost instead...*praying*...*praying*...*waiting for response*...

OMG!! Peacemaker, this story you shared about a demonic force haunting the Hodgson family 41 years ago is true!!! Evil exists!!! Demonic voices are true!!! Satan is real and likes to move furniture!!! The Book of Mormon is true!!! The LDS church is true!!!

Thank you so much for sharing this amazing story so that I could regain my testimony - I was almost a gonner.

[_Meadowchik]

The institutional LDS church is fundamentally broken and unhealthy.

Yes, evil exists and Mormonism advocates it.

[_grindael]

Here once again, is the vaunted power of the priesthood at work. Take note LIEmaker, this is one of your prophets using it and utterly failing. I wrote this elsewhere, but it's worth a re-read,

The Book of Mormon is modern pseudepigrapha.

spurious or pseudonymous writings, especially Jewish writings ascribed to various biblical patriarchs and prophets but composed within approximately 200 years of the birth of Jesus Christ.

It came from the mind of Joseph Smith. Did he have help? Possibly. The problem is, Jo purposefully left that part of his life blank and REFUSED to elaborate on it. Telling, since he was so forthcoming with lots of other areas of his life.

Focusing on the Book of Mormon is just what Jo wanted everyone to do. But the focus should really be on Smith himself. If he made up his First Vision, for example, then it is likely that he did so with the Book of Mormon. And he did, as evidence clearly points to. Please read this that I wrote to Kevin Christensen about the First Vision with the caveat that it is not definitive, I have much more. http://mormonitemusings.com/2015/10/27/ ... gm/#Think2

The "smoking gun" for the Book of Mormon is Joseph Smith himself. What he did with the Book of Mormon has been done with other texts, as MormonThink has documented here. http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm#full I'll give one example they gave:

The strange case of Patience Worth

St Louis, Missouri, May 1913. Mrs. Pearl Curran, while using a Ouija board, received the first of many messages from a mysterious entity, who called herself, at first 'Pat C'. On June 22nd, Pat returned and spelt out 'Oh, why let sorrow steel thy heart?' It was only two months after the first visit, on July 8th, that the entity finally revealed herself as 'Patience Worth'.

The spirit Worth, it soon transpired, was born in Dorset, England, in the seventeenth century. While still a young girl, the Worth family emigrated to America, where the young Patience met an untimely death at the hands of a tribe of native Indians.

From 1913 to Curran's death in 1938, Patience dictated an incredible amount of material through Mrs. Curran. Some of the material was in her quaint seventeenth century dialect, and some in a more modern English style. Her speed was tremendous - in one night, she dictated 22 poems. In one five-year stretch, she wrote 1,600,000 words. (About six times the length of the Book of Mormon)

Worth's writings were of a wide variety and quality. One of her full-length novels, Hope Trueblood, earned the following review from the editors of the Sheffield Independent (who were unaware of the circumstances surrounding the origin of the Book):

'Patience Worth must command a wide field of readers by the sheer excellence of Hope Trueblood, which contains sufficient high-grade characters, splendidly fashioned, to stock half a dozen novels.'

Telka, a poem of 60,000 words, made astonishingly accurate use of middle English phraseology. The sorry Tale, a 325,000 word book (50,000 words longer than the Book of Mormon) of the life of a 'parallel Christ' was written in 108 days, a rate of 3,000 words per evening. (By this stage, Patience had dispensed with the Ouija board, and transmitted her thoughts directly to Mrs. Curran's pen). The details of social, domestic and political life in ancient Palestine and Rome, and the language and customs of Greeks, Arabians, Romans and several sects of the Jews were rich and convincing.

(Compare this with the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith dictated about 275,000 words in about ninety days, beginning on April 7, 1829. The rate of output was about 3,050 words per day. If we count the fact that Joseph and Oliver worked together for only seventy-five of those ninety days, the output rate was about 3,700 words per day, including about 27,000 words quoted from the King James Bible.

On the other hand, the picture that the Book of Mormon paints of the ancient Americans is very difficult to validate. Not only does the Book fail to ascribe the correct attributes to the primal inhabitants, it also claims that they made use of artifacts, animals and plants that modern archaeology has so far been unable to find any trace of.)

Curran's knowledge of the Bible lands was limited to what she learned in Sunday School. She was not fond of reading, left school at the age of fifteen, and had hardly ever traveled out of St Louis. Her only occupation was as a housewife. There were no books in her house that could have been used for reference.

When tested, Curran revealed a distinct lack of knowledge of literature. She thought that Tennyson's famous poem was called the Lady of Charlotte. When asked to write as Curran herself, her work was slow, and no better than might be expected from a housewife with an average education.

During one 'dictation', Mrs. Curran expressed puzzlement over a reference that Patience made to a 'Bernadette' and 'the Maid'. She later discovered that Bernadette Soubirous was the Maid of Lourdes. In a similar manner, Joseph Smith once stopped the dictation of the Book of Mormon to enquire if Jerusalem actually had walls, as the text suggested.

An analysis of Worth's language, by qualified researchers, shows a substantially correct use of idiom and spelling for seventeenth century England. The style of the Book of Mormon, on the other hand, can best be described as 'fractured'. It attempts to emulate the cadence and flow of the King James Version, and falls far short of this goal.

This is one of Patience Worth's poems, in modern English:

Lavendar and Lace

A purple sky, twilight
Silver-fringed of tremorous stars;
Cloud rifts, tattered, as old lace,
And a shuttling moon - wan-faced, seeking.

Twilight, and garden shadows;
The liquid note of some late songster;
And the scent of lavendar and rue,
Like memory of the day aclinging!

The life of Pearl Curran, a woman living in St. Louis during the first part of the 20th century who channeled, originally through a Ouija board, the spirit of a 17th century woman named Patience Worth. The story of Pearl Curran and Patience Worth is an enigma, not easily explainable without an acceptance of spiritism or reincarnation.

This remarkable little book has probably been missed by many readers interested in the Book of Mormon. Irving Litvag says nothing about the Book of Mormon, but in detailing Mrs. Pearl Curran's authorship (under the spell of a spirit named Patience Worth) of thousands of pages of fiction, one can see how anyone under the right conditions could write a novel.

Between 1913 and 1937, Curran, a relatively uneducated St. Louis housewife, began dictating seven full-length novels, thousands of poems, innumerable epigrams and aphorisms, and thousands of pages of other material (some four million words in all).

Curran, as the spirit of a seventeenth century English woman, wrote in "a strange yet beautiful language strewn with obsolete and archaic words." Her works drew the attention of literary critics and historians. One critic said her story about Jesus was "the greatest story of the life and times of Christ penned since the Gospels were finished."

Litvag's book illustrates how a relatively uneducated person with a mission and a scribe could grind out historical fiction, such as Joseph Smith may have done with the Book of Mormon.

Editor Comments: After studying a bit about this fascinating story of Patience Worth, most of us get the distinct impression that Pearl Curran was sincere and she was not intentionally deceiving people when she produced those amazing works. However, none of us think that a dead poet was really communicating through Mrs. Curran.

FAIRMORMON attempted to rebut these claims of automatic writing with this:

One may ask why these other cases exist. In general, there are many examples of the adversary mimicking the ways of the Lord to deceive mankind. He knew that the Book of Mormon would be a great work in the hands of the Lord to bring about the salvation of many souls and to be the foundation for His restored church. It is not hard to believe that Satan would try to create similar stories to that of Joseph’s in an effort to discredit the work of the Lord.

So it is all thrown back to the "supernatural" by them. But was it? I ascribe it to the human mind, which is a true enigma and so complex that we may never figure it out. The fact that automatic writing exists, that it can be accomplished by men and women, proves that Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon that way.

How was Jo's memory retention? How was Ms. Worth's? We know for a fact that there are those who have photographic memories and can remember astounding things. We know that many have variations of photographic memories (myself included, that is why I can dig up quotes and remember them quickly). I remember remarkably well, when I read something and where it is though my memory is not truly "photographic". It has been a very useful talent in my life. I don't mention it much, because it is not particularly marvelous as other people's memories are. But I memorized the Missionary Discussions in 8 days and broke all of my mission records by applying it at that time.

Is what Joseph did beyond the pale of what others have accomplished? Not at all. Therefore, the Book of Mormon is not the focus here, it is what Smith said and did in his life. It is his credibility as a PROPHET. And he has no more credibility than any other self proclaimed prophet. Less, because he was not original, he was the consummate plagiarist and con artist. Jesus was pretty ORIGINAL. What he taught was groundbreaking and a departure from his culture and times. Jo never authored anything like it. One can follow Jesus words and not his supernatural claims. One can do that with Smith, but Mormonism does not, and never have MADE THIS DISTINCTION. Neither do some of the followers of Jesus, obviously. Joseph copied what others said and did. The Book of Mormon has fictional elements all grounded in what he had read before in the Bible and other places. B.H. Roberts who probably knew more about the Book of Mormon than anyone, claimed that yes, Jo could have written it himself. No one looks into a stone and sees magic glowing letters appear on it. It just doesn't happen. They are simply imagining things, like J.K. Rowling did with Harry Potter.

Roberts went to work and investigated it from every angle but could not answer it satisfactorily to himself. At his request Pres. Grant called a meeting of the Twelve Apostles and Bro. Roberts presented the matter, told them frankly that he was stumped and ask for their aide [sic] in the explanation. In answer, they merely one by one stood up and bore testimony to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. George Albert Smith in tears testified that his faith in the Book had not been shaken by the question. Pres. Ivins, the man most likely to be able to answer a question on that subject was unable to produce the solution. No answer was available. Bro. Roberts could not criticize them for not being able to answer it or to assist him, but said that in a Church which claimed continuous revelation, a crisis had arisen where revelation was necessary. After the meeting he wrote Pres. Grant expressing his disappointment at the failure and especially at the failure of Pres. Ivins to contribute to the problem. It was mentioned at the meeting by Bro. Roberts that there were other Book of Mormon problems that needed special attention. Richard R. Lyman spoke up and asked if they were things that would help our prestige and when Bro. Roberts answered no, he said then why discuss them. This attitude was too much for the historically minded Roberts.

There was however a committee appointed to study this problem, consisting of Bros. Talmage, Ballard, Roberts and one other Apostle. They met and looked vacantly at one and other, but none seemed to know what to do about it. Finally, Bro. Roberts mentioned that he had at least attempted an answer and he had it in his drawer. That it was an answer that would satisfy people that didn't think, but a very inadequate answer to a thinking man. They asked him to read it and after hearing it, they adopted it by vote and said that was about the best they could do. After this Bro. Roberts made a special Book of Mormon study. Treated the problem systematically and historically and in a 400 type written page thesis set forth a revolutionary article on the origin of the Book of Mormon and sent it to Pres. Grant. It's an article far too strong for the average Church member but for the intellectual group he considers it a contribution to assist in explaining Mormonism. He swings to a psychological explanation of the Book of Mormon and shows that the plates were not objective but subjective with Joseph Smith, that his exceptional imagination qualified him psychologically for the experience which he had in presenting to the world the Book of Mormon and that the plates with the Urim and Thummim were not objective. He explained certain literary difficulties in the Book such as the miraculous incident of the entire nation of the Jaradites, the dramatic story of one man being left on each side, and one of them finally being slain, also the New England flat hill surroundings of a great civilization of another part of the country. We see none of the cliffs of the Mayas or the high mountain peaks or other geographical environment of early American civilization that the entire story laid in a New England flat hill surrounding. These are some of the things which has made Bro. Roberts shift his base on the Book of Mormon. Instead of regarding it as the strongest evidence we have of Church Divinity, he regards it as the one which needs the most bolstering. His greatest claim for the divinity of the Prophet Joseph lies in the Doctrine and Covenants. From 'Studies of the Book of Mormon, B. H. Roberts, ed. by Brigham D. Madsen, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1992; pp. 22-24

Mormon leaders have offered NOTHING to counter the claims made by Roberts. NOTHING. What have they ever "translated", brought forth, or done? Nothing. They have the Book of Mormon as the foundation, and that is it. Why nothing more on the Book of Abraham? Why is everything they have done so mundane and unremarkable? Is anything that Jo provided in the Book of Abraham really that remarkable? No.

Why do we find chiasmus on Strang's translation of his brass plates? http://www.strangite.org/Chiasmus.htm

NOTHING that Jo did was remarkable. His CLAIMS were, but have been debunked time after time. Here is Stephen Burnett:

Br[other]. Johnson — …my heart is sickened within me when I reflect upon the manner in which we with many of this Church have been led & the losses which we have sustained all by means of two men in whom we placed implicit confidence, that Joseph Smith & Sidney Rigdon are notorious liars I do not hesitate to affirm, & can prove by a cloud of witnesses… I have reflected long and deliberately upon the history of this church & weighed the evidence for & against it – loth to give it up – but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations was sapped & the entire structure fell a heap of ruins, I therefore three week[s] since in the Stone Chapel gave a full history of the church since I became acquainted with it, the false preaching & prophecying etc of Joseph [Smith] together with the reasons why I took the course which I was resolved to do, and renounced the Book of Mormon with the whole scene of lying and deception…believing as I verily do, that it is all a wicked deception palmed upon us unawares[.]

…after we were done speaking M[artin] Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain… I am well satisfied for myself that if the witnesses whose names are attached to the Book of Mormon never saw the plates as Martin H[arris] admits that there can be nothing brought to prove that any such thing ever existed for it is said on the 171 page of the book of covenants [D&C 17:5] that the three [witnesses] should testify that they had seen the plates even as J[oseph] S[mith] Jr & if they saw them spiritually or in vision with their eyes shut – J[oseph] S[mith] Jr never saw them any other way & if so the plates were only visionary and I am well satisfied that the 29 & 37 Chap[ter]s of Isai[a]h & Ezekiel together with others in which we depended to prove the truth of the Book of Mormon have no bearing when correctly understood but are entirely irrelevant… (Dan Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents, Volume 2, 290-293)

The plates WERE NOT REAL. The only reason why Mormon "prophets" and "apostles" (who are also "prophets") are in business today, is because they are CAREFUL with what they say. But they claim their "priesthood authority" is REAL. They claim that they are direct spokesman for God. They do not claim that God works through "opinions", cultural influences or any of the plethora of things YOU put forth in your apologetic arguments here. Apologists like you, MG, and those like Kevin Christensen have to INVENT a whole NEW Mormonism to make this stuff work. You refuse to give credence to what Mormon AUTHORITIES of the past (and mostly from today) have CLAIMED about themselves. Instead, you ... yeah, make crap up. Mormon "authorities", who were ordained PROPHETS, have prophesied. Some concerning the Book of Mormon. One such, was Parley P. Pratt. He said,

Concerning prophecy, he [LaRoy Sunderland] remarks that "it cannot be proved, that one prediction in that book, which is not taken from the Bible, was written before the event, said to be described." Again he says, "there are no predictions, peculiar to this book, yet to be fulfilled, no names of persons or places, or periods of time, are referred to, by which anything definite can be known, as to what is meant by the jargon of Mormon Prophets." Now, Mr. La Roy Sunderland, we will prove to the world that this in one of the most barefaced falsehoods ever uttered by man. The Book of Mormon contains many prophecies, yet future, with names, places, and dates, so definite, that a child may understand; indeed, it is one of the peculiar characteristics of the Book of Mormon, that its predictions are plain, simple, definite, literal, positive and very express, as to the time of their fulfilment. Notice a prediction of Nephi, page 125, second edition. "For after the book of which I have spoken, shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many, which shall believe the words which are written, and they shall carry them forth, unto the remnant of our seed, (the Indians) and then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us; how that we came on from Jerusalem; and that they are the descendants of the Jews; and the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be declared among them; wherefore they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers; and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers; and then shall they rejoice for they shall know, that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God. And their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people. And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall begin to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ, shall also be a delightsome people; and it shall come to pass, that the Lord God shall commence his work among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, to bring about the restoration of his people upon the earth. * * * For the time speedily cometh, that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy, and he will spare his people." [Yeah, we are still waiting]

Also page 121, 2d edition. "Behold that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof: for the kingdom of the devil must shake; and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger and perish; for behold at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good."

Also, page 122 2nd edition. "Woe unto all those who tremble and are angry, because of the truth of God; for behold he that is built upon the rock, receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth, lest he shall fall." Also. page 123 2nd edition. "Woe be unto the Gentiles, says the Lord God of Hosts; for notwithstanding I shall lengthen out my arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me." See also, page 514, and read the fate of our nation, and the fate of the Indians of America; in the day that the Gentiles should reject the fullness of the gospel.--(The Book of Mormon.) See also, page 526, where a sign is given, and the time clearly set for the restoration and gathering of Israel from their long dispersion, namely, the coming forth the Book of Mormon, should be the sign; and in the day this work should come forth, should this great event commence among all nations. Also, p. 527, where all who will not hearken to the Book of Mormon, shall be cut off from among the people; and that too, in the day it comes forth to the Gentiles and is rejected by them. And not only does this page set the time for the overthrow of our government [The United States] and all other Gentile governments on the American continent, [Even Canada & South America!] but the way and means of this utter destruction are clearly foretold; namely, the remnant of Jacob [The Indians] will go through among the Gentiles and tear them in pieces like a lion among the flocks of sheep. Their hand [With battleaxes?] shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. This destruction includes an utter overthrow, and desolation of all our Cities, Forts, and Strong Folds--an entire annihilation of our race, except such as embrace the Covenant, and are numbered with Israel. [The Mormons and Lamanites]

Now, Mr. Sunderland, you have something definite and tangible, the time, the manner, the means, the names, the dates; and I will state as a prophecy, that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent 50 years hence; [1888] and if they are not greatly scourged, and in a great measure overthrown, within five or ten years from this date, [1843] then the Book of Mormon will have proved itself false. [Uh-oh]

And furthermore, as Mr. LaRoy Sunderland has lied concerning the truth of Heaven, [He obviously did not] the fulness of the Gospel; and has blasphemed against the word of God, except he speedily repent, [He didn't] and acknowledge his lying and wickedness, and obey the message of eternal truth, which God has sent for the salvation of his people. God will smite him dumb, [never happened] that he can no longer speak great swelling words against the Lord; and a trembling shall seize his nerves, that he shall not be able to write; [ditto] and Zion’s Watchman shall cease to be published abroad, and its lies shall no longer deceive the public; and he will wander a vagabond on the earth, [nope] until sudden destruction shall overtake him; [nada] and if Mr. La Roy Sunderland enquires, when shall these things be? I reply, it is nigh thee--even at thy doors; and I say this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. [ewww, scary!]

I hope Mr. Sunderland, will no more complain of the jargon of the Mormon Prophets being unintelligible or indefinite.(Parley P. Pratt, Mormonism Unveiled, 1838, p.14 - p.16).

Interesting that LaRoy Sunderland lived a long and healthy life, while it was Parley P. Pratt who was cut down by the crazed husband of a woman that Parley committed adultery with. Such is the power of the Mormon Priesthood and the prophetic powers of a Mormon "prophet, seer, & revelator". He did prove one thing though, the Book of Mormon proved itself false by 1843.

FAIRMORMON's explanation:

In this case that Elder Pratt was simply wrong. He had no authority to declare doctrine for the Church. What he was doing, it seems, was instead reading scripture and interpreting what he thought was a prophecy contained therein. If he had been right in his reading, then of course his prophecy would have been true, since scripture has the authority to give prophecy. But, it is hard to read the scripture and think that this is as clear-cut as he makes it out to be. It isn't.

Parley likely wanted a response to Sunderland's argument, but Sunderland was right--there is no prophecy in the Book of Mormon that is specific enough that someone in 1838 could have said, "Oh yeah, this is obviously from God, it foretold X." And, while Sunderland may think that a weakness, modern believers would probably see it as normal and expected--God does not give "signs" like that. There may well be prophecies we can appreciate, but they won't be so compelling that they will force people to believe, and we may not see them until "after the fact."

In sum, Parley is here really more (mis)reading scripture than coming up with a prophecy out of the blue. He was mistaken, but that's OK--even apostles can be wrong, and an isolated apostle has no right to declare binding doctrine. New revelation would always come to the prophet--which Parley likely knew, but he just thought his reading of the scripture was obviously correct, so felt no fear in making it. But, we must remember that he came out of a long religious background before joining the Church in which he had a deep sense of the second coming's urgency and imminence. So, what seemed a "natural" reading to him just wasn't.

It's a good reminder that what we think is really obvious about scripture may not be so; our own biases and cultural presuppositions come into it. (This article may be doing the same thing, of course, reading it with more historical distance, but a compelling case can certainly be made, nonetheless, that the Book of Mormon is not near so precise or specific as Parley thought.)

If the Book of Mormon had actually said what Parley thought it did, and did so as specifically as he thought it did, that might pose a problem. But, he's mistaken about what it says, and so the Book of Mormon stands or falls on Parley's misreading.

What Parley was likely trying to do was force Sunderland to take the Book of Mormon seriously (since this argument in itself would have proved nothing to Sunderland, since it was well in the future). Parley took the Book of Mormon text more seriously than many of his fellow Saints, and so he was probably trying to encourage his readers to give it a fair shot.
That is good advice, even if his application or reading was flawed in this case.

Notice the ONE THING that they leave out. That Parley P. Pratt HAD ANY AUTHORITY. Yet, he did. The Twelve were in charge of INTERPRETING DOCTRINE, away from the Center Stakes in the Church. What they said there, WAS BINDING. FAIRMORMON throws Pratt (An ORDAINED Mormon "PROPHET" and "APOSTLE") under the bus. Is this what Mormonism is all about. And what about his PRIESTHOOD DRIVEN PROPHECY about the Book of Mormon? What about that? Here is your supernatural claim, being overturned by ANOTHER supernatural claim.

Joseph Smith, 1837:

They are the Twelve Apostles, who are called to the office of traveling high council, who are to preside over all the churches of the Saints among the Gentiles, where there is no presidency established, and they are to travel and preach among the Gentiles, until the Lord shall command them to go to the Jews. They are to hold the keys of this ministry, to unlock the door of the kingdom of heaven unto all nations and to preach the Gospel to every creature. This is the power, authority and virtue of their Apostleship.

Again,

President Joseph Smith then stated that the Twelve will have no right to go into Zion, or any of its stakes, and there undertake to regulate the affairs thereof, where there is a standing high council; but it is their duty to go abroad and regulate all matters relative to the different branches of the Church….No standing High Council has authority to go into the churches abroad, and regulate the matters thereof, for this belongs to the Twelve.

What did Pratt proclaim that was "binding doctrine". Nothing. He used his authority to answer a question, and claimed that it came from GOD, and used his PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY to do so. He had EVERY RIGHT TO DO SO. (This was in New York). He had every right to use his Priesthood power to declare revelation, bless and curse, and INTERPRET doctrine. The Book of Mormon was ALREADY BINDING DOCTRINE, Pratt was using his Apostolic and Prophetic power to INTERPRET IT. This is where FAIRMORMON goes off the tracks. (As usual).

Joseph himself, gave authority to W. W. Phelps as the editor of the Evening and Morning Star, to proclaim DOCTRINE:

we wish you to render the Star as interesting as possable by setting forth the rise progress and faith of the church, as well as the doctrine for if you do not render it more interesting than at present it will fall, and the church suffer a great Loss thereby—Joseph Smith Jr [p. 20] http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... y-1833&p=3

And the Q12 could not do the same? Hogwash. Pratt didn't call up his interpretations out of a vacuum. There are statements by Joseph and others to back this up. FAIRMORMON is a JOKE.

If you want to be a social Mormon, or believe in the supernatural claims of Joseph Smith, go right ahead. I have no problem with you admitting that you do or doing so. But there isn't a leg for the Book of Mormon to stand on. Please stop trying to claim that there is any CREDIBLE evidence there is, or that you would be persuaded by evidence that it isn't. Your refusal to acknowledge it as simple pseudepigrapha from the mind of Joseph Smith indicates to me that you do not take any of these claims seriously, because you keep trying to prop it up. Where is the smoking gun evidence? EVERYWHERE.