Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book of Mormon?

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_Lemmie
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Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book of Mormon?

Post by _Lemmie »

The following OP was posted at MD&D about Skousen and Carmack's upcoming event where they will discuss the latest publications related to their Critical Text Project:
Robert F. Smith wrote:
Celebrating Two New Books in the Book of Mormon Critical Text Project

Authors Royal Skousen & Stanford Carmack will present summaries and answer questions, Sept 25, 2018, at the Hinckley Alumni Center Assembly Hall, at 7 p.m. Free parking available East of that Center in BYU Lot 16.

Parts 3 and 4 of volume 3 of the Critical Text Project: The Nature of the Original Language of the Book of Mormon. They are being published jointly by BYU Studies and FARMS.


I don't know if the rest is R F Smith's interpretation, or part of the official press release, but he goes on to post this:
The Nature of the Original Language (NOL) continues the analysis of the Book of Mormon text that was begun in Grammatical Variation (GV), parts 1 and 2 of volume 3 of the critical text, published in 2016. In that first work, Royal Skousen (with the collaboration of Stanford Carmack), discussed all the editing that the Book of Mormon has undergone, in its manuscript transmission and in the printed editions from 1830 up to the current edition. Critics of the text have viewed the nonstandard grammar of the original text (“they was yet wroth” and “in them days”) as an indication of Joseph Smith’s dialect, but Skousen and Carmack argue in GV that the so-called bad grammar of the original text was actually Early Modern English and represents language that appeared in published texts from the 1500s and 1600s.

Now in NOL, Skousen (again with the assistance of Carmack) argues that virtually all of the language of the Book of Mormon, not just the bad grammar, is found in Early Modern English. And not only are these words, phrases, and expressions in the text largely from Early Modern English, but a good many of them ceased to exist in English prior to 1700 (examples like but if ‘unless’, do away ‘to dismiss’, and idleness ‘meaningless words’). In all, Skousen identifies about 80 such word uses, phrases, and expressions that disappeared from English one to three centuries before the 1830 publication of the Book of Mormon.

In section 12 of NOL, Carmack discusses the syntax of the Book of Mormon and investigates the plural -th ending (“Nephi’s brethren rebelleth”), the periphrastic past-tense did (“they did quake”), and complex finite clausal complements (“he can cause the earth that it shall pass away”). The Book of Mormon’s extensive (and particular) use of this syntax is not found in the King James Bible, nor in Joseph Smith’s writings or in the pseudobiblical writings common to his time. But it was prevalent in the English of the second half of the 1500s.

Several sections of NOL are dedicated to showing that virtually every expression that scholars and critics have proposed as representing the language of Joseph Smith’s time turn out to be in earlier English, even striking expressions like “to endure the crosses of the world” and “to sing the song of redeeming love”. And some of these are truly archaic expressions that died out of English prior to 1600 and would not have been used by Joseph Smith in his own language, but there they are in the Book of Mormon, examples like “how be it”, meaning ‘however it may be’, and “never the less”, meaning ‘by no means less’.

NOL also lists 133 word uses, phrases, and expressions that can be found in the King James Bible. Many of these are quite rare in the biblical text, examples like require ‘to request’ and cast arrows ‘to shoot arrows’.

Nineteenth-century critics of the Book of Mormon typically mocked what they viewed as the inelegant phraseology of the Book of Mormon. For instance, Alexander Campbell, in his blistering 1831 critique of the Book of Mormon, identified 121 of these “Smithisms”, yet it turns out that all but one of them occurred in Early Modern English. In fact, some of them occurred in the King James Bible, but somehow Campbell, the biblical scholar, misidentified these too as “Smithisms”.

In Skousen and Carmack’s view, all of this linguistic evidence (along with the evidence from eyewitnesses of the translation process) strongly argues that Joseph Smith was not the author of the translated English-language text of the Book of Mormon; instead, he received it word for word from the Lord by means of his translation instrument.

Finally, Skousen argues that the themes of the Book of Mormon – religious, social, and political – do not derive from Joseph Smith’s time (also an 1831 claim of Alexander Campbell’s), but instead are the prominent issues of the Protestant Reformation, and they too date from the 1500s and 1600s rather than the 1800s – examples like burning people at the stake for heresy, standing before the bar of justice (often called the pleading bar in the 1600s), secret combinations to overthrow the government, the rejection of infant baptism, the sacrament as symbolic memorial and spiritual renewal, public rather than private confession, no required works of penance, and piety in living and worship. Skousen believes that the Book of Mormon would have resonated much more strongly with the Reformed and Radical Protestants of the 1500s and 1600s than with the Christians of Joseph Smith’s time.

Ultimately, both NOL and GV show that the Book of Mormon is a much different text than what readers have been supposing for the past 188 years. Most importantly, these two works clearly demonstrate that the day of casual claims about the language of the Book of Mormon is over, especially those general statements that the language is a crude imitation of the King James style, intermixed with Joseph Smith’s dialectal usage.


At the end of this presentation, Dr. Skousen will address these important questions:

(1) Is the original Book of Mormon text an Early Modern English text?

(2) What happens to the Early Modern English hypothesis if we find clear evidence of words, phrases, and expressions dating from the second half of the 1700s?

(3) Is the Book of Mormon English translation a literal translation of what was on the plates?

(4) Did the Lord himself do the translation, or did he have others do it?

(5) Why didn’t the Lord reveal the text to Joseph Smith in his English or in our current English (or in B. H. Roberts’ or James E. Talmage’s “correct” English)?

(6) Is there a need for a modernized text of the Book of Mormon?

Those 6 questions just make me laugh. Are they from Smith's mind, or did the authors actually agree to do that? Talk about usurping the authority of your leaders! Do Skousen and Carmack really have the right, let alone the ability, to answer those questions?

Similarly, I don't know if the following paragraph, excerpted from above, is Smith's opinion only or if it represents the authors' stated position, but it is pretty staggering in its implications:
In Skousen and Carmack’s view, all of this linguistic evidence (along with the evidence from eyewitnesses of the translation process) strongly argues that Joseph Smith was not the author of the translated English-language text of the Book of Mormon; instead, he received it word for word from the Lord by means of his translation instrument.



Even if it is stipulated that the linguistic evidence shows Joseph Smith is NOT the author because it is legitimately an Early Modern English text (a point contested pretty strongly here by Symmachus, myself, Runtu and others), to assume that stipulation must imply a supernatural conclusion is not logical.
_lostindc
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Re: Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book

Post by _lostindc »

In Skousen and Carmack’s view, all of this linguistic evidence (along with the evidence from eyewitnesses of the translation process) strongly argues that Joseph Smith was not the author of the translated English-language text of the Book of Mormon; instead, he received it word for word from the Lord by means of his translation instrument.


I can't wait to view the evidence of Joseph Smith receiving the text word for word from the Big Guy in the Sky wearing white robes and surrounded by clouds.
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_Lemmie
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Re: Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book

Post by _Lemmie »

lostindc wrote:
In Skousen and Carmack’s view, all of this linguistic evidence (along with the evidence from eyewitnesses of the translation process) strongly argues that Joseph Smith was not the author of the translated English-language text of the Book of Mormon; instead, he received it word for word from the Lord by means of his translation instrument.


I can't wait to view the evidence of Joseph Smith receiving the text word for word from the Big Guy in the Sky wearing white robes and surrounded by clouds.

Or his committee. :rolleyes:
_I have a question
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Re: Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book

Post by _I have a question »

I might be wrong, but doesn’t a “tight translation” (word for word) bring a raft of other issues around mistakes, anachronisms, Joseph’s credibility etc? And you’re correct, proving(if that’s what they think they’ve done) ‘Joseph didn’t author it’ doesn’t automatically mean ‘the Book of Mormon is what the Church claims it to be and that it came via supernatural words on a rock’.

It’s interesting how keen people and the Church now are to throw under the bus the version of how the book was translated that I was taught for 40 years.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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Re: Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book of Mormon?

Post by _Lemmie »

Thanks to Tom's link in the Mormon Interpreter Radio thread, it is confirmed that Smith's OP, except for the 6 questions at the end and the three short paragraphs at the beginning, came from the byu description of the book:
"The Nature of the Original Language of the Book of Mormon (Parts 3 and 4, Volume III, Book of Mormon Critical Text Project)"

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/natu ... tical-text
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Re: Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book

Post by _Dr Exiled »

This has always baffled me why they insist on going down this dead end. If these are God's words, then why all the acrobatics? Why not just clearly communicate them to Joseph and have him write them down. Surely God wouldn't want to have multiple translations where the chance for error increases with each rendition.
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Re: Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book of Mormon?

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

(4) Did the Lord himself do the translation, or did he have others do it?

Jesus: Guys, I know there's an eternity's worth of stuff that you need me to do in anticipation of my Second Coming. You just need to hang on a few months while I translate Nephite to gussied-up frontier English for a friend.
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Re: Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book

Post by _Dr. Shades »

I have a question wrote:It’s interesting how keen people and the Church now are to throw under the bus the version of how the book was translated that I was taught for 40 years.

This is the version of how the book was translated that you were taught for 40 years.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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_lostindc
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Re: Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book

Post by _lostindc »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
(4) Did the Lord himself do the translation, or did he have others do it?

Jesus: Guys, I know there's an eternity's worth of stuff that you need me to do in anticipation of my Second Coming. You just need to hang on a few months while I translate Nephite to gussied-up frontier English for a friend.


LOL! "Nephite to gussied-up frontier English for a friend" haha
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Re: Carmack, Skousen to answer Q: who really translated Book

Post by _I have a question »

Dr. Shades wrote:
I have a question wrote:It’s interesting how keen people and the Church now are to throw under the bus the version of how the book was translated that I was taught for 40 years.

This is the version of how the book was translated that you were taught for 40 years.

You were there?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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