Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and Links

[_Mary]

She wasn't a witness to any abuse, but she was there at the time, participated in interviewing the perpetrator at John Hopkins and at least one granddaughter.

No worries, Lemmie. Again, it's up to the reader to decide on the credibility of adult and child witnesses.

[_Lemmie]

She wasn't a witness to any abuse, but she was there at the time, participated in interviewing the perpetrator at John Hopkins and at least one granddaughter.

No worries, Lemmie. Again, it's up to the reader to decide on the credibility of adult and child witnesses.

Agreed. I was expecting the terms 'chronology' and 'timeline' to refer to objective, fact-based and verified events since that is the more typical meaning, so it was a little disconcerting to look into the sources and find that the majority of the chronological statements were based on one person's opinion, and would probably be disputed by other participants involved. That makes the terminology problematic, if your goal here is to present an objectively reliable chronology.

You've done some great work compiling this, so it might be helpful to add something like "Marion Smith alleges" to the applicable entries so that people understand your meaning.

[_Mary]

Yeah. Good point. I'll change them where applicable.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

WOW, Mary. This has been SUPER fascinating. Thanks for putting this together. As someone who is just a rubbernecker on this forum this is... Well, it's scary and, I don't know. I lack the words. The way your document constructs the picture this whole affair is bizarre and terrifying. It's a sort of Salem Witch Trials Meets the Mormons mash-up.

Incredibly interesting.

- Doc

[_cinepro]

For information about the program at John Hopkins that Bill Carstensen went to in the 80s, this is a good article:

The Professor of Horrible Deeds

Based on that article, I'm very, very skeptical that they would give Bill a "lie detector test" or ask him questions "under sodium amythol" (both of which are extremely problematic claims in their own right).

HI Cinepro,

I am trying to figure out where this information belongs in the Chronological List.

In the article you linked it says:

Berlin, who is an associate professor of psychiatric and behavioral sciences and director of the Sex and Gender Clinic at the Johns Hopkins University, is fascinated by shifting perceptions of sin — gluttony, he observes, was once categorized with other cardinal vices, but is now understood as more of a medical issue than a personal failing.

Do we have any indication Bill was treated by Berlin? Berlin was an associate professor at Johns Hopkins and Bill was treated at Johns Hopkins. That doesn't necessarily mean that Berlin treated Bill.

I don't know that a "lie detector test" or questions under the influence of any "truth serum" are all that pertinent as, like you say, those are questionable practices with questionable results. Could you point out in what way the evidence is dependent on lie detector tests or truth serums so that it's possible to get the right links into the document in some sort of order that will make it easy for people to follow?

for what it's worth, Exhibit "A" in the filed complaint is the discharge from John Hopkins, and it says Berlin was the "Discharge Attending":

https://fox13now.com/2018/10/03/lawsuit ... president/

It doesn't seem to have the complete discharge order, but the second page does say something about sodium amythol, so that part appears to be valid.

[_Lemmie]

[Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

by Mary

Created in an effort to help make some sense of what's happened.

Ultimately, do you intend to add anything besides just the one viewpoint? There are so many issues with the source you are using for the vast majority of your timeline that it's really difficult to use it to "make some sense of what's happened," as per your stated goal.

[_Mary]

[Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

by Mary

Created in an effort to help make some sense of what's happened.

Ultimately, do you intend to add anything besides just the one viewpoint? There are so many issues with the source you are using for the vast majority of your timeline that it's really difficult to use it to "make some sense of what's happened," as per your stated goal.

Lemmie, check again. I've used quite a lot of sources including the suit. I can't ignore Smith. Do you have some sources I can add on the cases specifically.

[_Lemmie]

[Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

by Mary

Created in an effort to help make some sense of what's happened.

Ultimately, do you intend to add anything besides just the one viewpoint? There are so many issues with the source you are using for the vast majority of your timeline that it's really difficult to use it to "make some sense of what's happened," as per your stated goal.

Lemmie, check again. I've used quite a lot of sources including the suit. I can't ignore Smith. Do you have some sources I can add on the cases specifically.

No I don't. And I did look again. In my opinion the vast majority of your references are based on a wildly unreliable source, to the extent that what you've created is a story of how fictional interpretations can invade and disrupt a real life situation for decades. If that was your intent, then I get it.

[_Mary]

No I don't. And I did look again. In my opinion the vast majority of your references are based on a wildly unreliable source, to the extent that what you've created is a story of how fictional interpretations can invade and disrupt a real life situation for decades. If that was your intent, then I get it.

I have found one contradiction in Smith's account and I noted it. I'm also using the suit. Lemmie, again, point me in the direction of reliable sources. I'll include them.

[_Res Ipsa]

One correction: the Utah Supreme Court did not deny Alan Hadfield's appeal for a new trial. It ordered the District Court to conduct an evidentiary hearing. I can't find any information on what happened at that hearing. It looks like Hadfield was paroled to a treatment center of some kind, but it's not clear. The Supreme Court case is important because the Court ordered an evidentiary hearing based on new information about how Snow Treated the children.

I would add the date that the one other fellow who was convicted was paroled.

I'd also try to track down when Snow left her original place of employment and what happened to that organization, if possible. She also apparently alleged the existence of rings besides those in the chronology. I'd track down information about those as well and add them.

I think creating a timeline is a great method for trying to figure out complex situations.