Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Church

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_I have a question
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Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Church

Post by _I have a question »

The changes to Primary aren’t the only modifications that should give small, struggling congregations more breathing room:

The two-hour block means we can call fewer teachers for adult Sunday School, priesthood, and Relief Society, which is an advantage when wards are short of potential volunteers and don’t want to keep asking the STPs (“same ten people”) again and again. Where I live, the move to a two-hour block may prevent burnout and exhaustion, as a number of members have more than one calling.
Consolidating the priesthood quorums for men earlier this year had much the same effect. Merging the two reduced the number of necessary callings to staff both organizations.

Moving away from formal home and visiting teaching programs has the potential to reduce the number of items that faithful Mormons have on their to-do checklists. (I say “potential” here because even though this has been in place since April, there are still a lot of questions about how it is supposed to work in practice. Actually, some folks seem reluctant to let go of the checklist.)

Emphasizing “at home” strategies for learning the gospel points the way toward greater flexibility in how people read, discuss, and gather together. They can have Family Home Evening on whatever night works for them, rather than everyone moving heaven and earth to make FHE happen on a busy Monday. And they can create small groups to study and pray together.

When President Nelson announced the age change for priesthood ordination and Young Women on Facebook, church members’ responses were almost over the top in their enthusiasm—specifically, that the change reflected how the Lord’s church is advancing in the latter days. Some commenters talked about it as an example of modern revelation, which is not language that President Nelson used himself, though he has characterized other Handbook policy changes as “revelation” in the past.

My approach is more pragmatic: This new ordination policy reflects how the Church is contracting in the latter days. And I’m grateful we’re addressing it. Whatever the origins of this change, it solves a problem for my ward community. And given the slow shrinkage of the Church’s growth rate from year to year, we’re not alone in experiencing this. Around the world, Mormons had about a 1.5% growth rate in 2017; in the United States it was half that, barely outpacing population growth (.75% Mormon growth versus .71% for the general population).

As policies go, there’s a lot to like about these recent ones, which acknowledge the realities of declining growth and the needs of smaller wards.

https://religionnews.com/2018/12/17/new ... ng-church/
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_reflexzero
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Re: Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Chur

Post by _reflexzero »

Next week: Riess gets the Mormon Banhammer.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
_Lemmie
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Re: Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Chur

Post by _Lemmie »

Peterson's most frequent commenter, kiwi57, shows up in Riess' comment section. Highlights of his post responding to another commenter:
"...utter bigot...outright liar...pig-ignorance..."


That last one just cracks me up. What does he think he's accomplishing? He does more harm than good for his religion.

Riess makes some interesting points. Combined with Nelson's sports stadium-sized Devotional Tour, the religion is looking less like a church and more like a Joel Osteen-type televangelist enterprise. The term "prosperity gospel" fits surprisingly well.

From an OP-ed piece discussing prosperity churches:
There is a lingering controversy around prosperity megachurches and their charitable giving. When a church that places enormous theological weight on tithes and offerings is not a leader in charitable giving, the most obvious question is about who is the primary beneficiary of the prosperity gospel? The everyman or the man at the front?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act ... 73c50c9330
_Stem
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Re: Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Chur

Post by _Stem »

Lemmie wrote:Riess makes some interesting points. Combined with Nelson's sports stadium-sized Devotional Tour, the religion is looking less like a church and more like a Joel Osteen-type televangelist enterprise. The term "prosperity gospel" fits surprisingly well.


Not long ago their was nothing but pride in the growing church. It kind of irks me in that they seem pleased its not growing like it used to and they're happy running the business as it is. What they need, though, is some elements of growth somewhere in the world. Just as for decades South America was the exciting place to reference, its Africa now. They need it to keep the core enthused, I think. It continues the impression that the Church is growing by leaps and bounds across the world and that growth is their single biggest problem.

I think Holland says that (growth being their single biggest problem) because growth in Africa is an expense they probably don't want to have, but need because of the fading elsewhere.
_consiglieri
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Re: Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Chur

Post by _consiglieri »

President Nelson has been spinning this as a move toward home-centered gospel study, though always supported (i.e., controlled) by the church.

Jana sees right through all these changes to the heart of the issue.

Most, if not all, of the recent Nelsonian changes reflect the needs of a shrinking church.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Shulem
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Re: Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Chur

Post by _Shulem »

consiglieri wrote:Most, if not all, of the recent Nelsonian changes reflect the needs of a shrinking church.


The incredible shrinking church is going through growing changes it never expected to experience.

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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Chur

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I sat down this morning for some usual morning business when I realized that the only magazine within reach was the Nov issue of the Ensign which has the recent conference talks. It's not really my cup of tea but I was in a bit of a bind, so I grabbed it.

Some interesting things popped out as I read.

First there are footnotes at the end of each talk referencing scriptures or even providing more information regarding a personal story like documenting where, when and/or with whom a certain experience happened. I wonder if this is a result the shitstorm Bill Reel raised about Holland?

Footnote #2 from Quentin Cook's talk was relevant to this thread. His talk starts on page 8 for those who are following along and have not torn it out to use in an emergency. First the paragraph to which the footnote is appended.

Q Cook in Nov 2018 Ensign wrote:With respect to the Sunday meeting schedule, the senior leaders of the Church have been aware for many years that for some of our precious members, a three-hour Sunday schedule at church can be difficult. This is particularly true for parents with small children, Primary children, eldery members, new converts and others. (2)
Well that covers pretty much everybody except those who do not have kids to watch. I wonder how he forgot about those who have to sit near a crying child in Sacrament? Anyways the footnote itself is interesting.

Footnote 2 to the talk above wrote:We are also aware that, in society at large, the vast majority of events for information. education, and even entertainment have been significantly shortened.


What? "The vast majority?" My kids and now grand kids still attend school about the same amount of time each day, movies are about the same length, sporting events are actually longer (has he been to a baseball game lately?) programs on TV are still 1/2 hour or an hour. What are the vast majority of events that have experienced shrinkage? I tell you this comment really moved me.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_reflexzero
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Re: Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Chur

Post by _reflexzero »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Footnote 2 to the talk above wrote:We are also aware that, in society at large, the vast majority of events for information, education, and even entertainment have been significantly shortened.



...but as President Nelson said in his recent [October 2018] conference talk, “The Lord’s ways are not, and never will be, man’s ways.”

-Oaks, Church Newsroom


So as long as Church meetings remain non-informative, non-educational, and certainly non-entertaining, then they fulfill the requirements of doing things in the Lord’s long established pattern of making members march to the drum, even if they shorten the duration.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
_Craig Paxton
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Re: Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Chur

Post by _Craig Paxton »

In a recently posted r/exmormon Reddit post, an anonymous poster, who is claiming a close relationship with unnamed apostles stated that the top 15 are very concerned with church growth numbers. The moderators have vetted this poster so I'm guessing he's legit...but I remain skeptical. Take it for what its worth.


https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... m_gay_and/
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Riess - Nelson's changes are signs of a contracting Chur

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Anyone else notice that the changes being made to make members lives easier are only in those areas that are financially beneficial to the church?


If they really wanted to make life easier for members, they would reduce tithing. It would be simple, they could just announce it is based on net gain. Or they could start paying for janitorial services again. Fast offerings could be done away with. Ward budgets could be increased with SLC making up the shortages where necessary.

Yeah, like that is going to happen.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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