Riess publishes more than Apostles on why people leave.

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Riess publishes more than Apostles on why people leave.

Post by _I have a question »

The volume, written with political scientist Benjamin Knoll at Centre College in Danville, Ky., includes data from their 2016 Next Mormons Survey, a large-scale, nationally representative study of four generations, including 1,156 current church members and 540 former members, plus 63 in-depth individual interviews.

Riess’ book is a “momentous achievement,” said David Campbell, a Notre Dame professor of political science.

The volume is the “new standard for the empirical study of Mormonism — rigorous but accessible,” Campbell wrote in an email. “It is filled with rich insights, confirming some long-held assumptions about Latter-day Saints’ beliefs and behaviors, but also illustrating where previous assumptions have gone awry.”

The research contributes to many fields, he said, including religious studies, sociology, political science and anthropology.

“The genius of the book is that Jana designed her survey to be relevant to today's church, which enables her to uncover new and important insights,” he said. “It is as though she created a Mormon MRI: able to see below the surface to understand what LDS folks really think.”

Retired sociologist Armand Mauss seconds that opinion.

It is a “major contribution to the sociology of contemporary American Latter-day Saints,” said Mauss, who lives in Southern California, “both because of its craftsmanship and because of its recency or currency. It will remain relevant for several years to come.”

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/02 ... ay-issues/

I hope the Apostles all grab a copy, they'll learn something.

That’s why the data’s biggest surprise, Riess said, was coffee.

According to the church’s health code known as the Word of Wisdom, coffee drinking is prohibited and would bar those who drink it from entering the faith’s temples.

But some 40 percent of current millennial and GenXer members said they had had a cup of coffee in the previous six months, Riess reported, including some who reported having a “temple recommend.”

There was a “clear generational divide” in how Latter-day Saints viewed the Word of Wisdom. Older members saw adherence as “essential” to their identity. Youngers saw it as “important, perhaps, but not essential.”

Coffee Drinkers in the temple!!! Whatever next...

What this all says to Mauss is that millennial members “define their ‘Mormon’ identity more in terms of social integration and participation with the Saints than in terms of strict compliance with church rules and requirements [as the preceding generations did].” Riess characterized this general posture as “hold[ing] institutional authority more lightly,” he said, which Mauss described as being more “laid back.”

That divide is a serious issue that maintaining an increasingly geriatric institutional authority will never be able to understand or address.

For his part, Campbell would like to see further research into “the continuing reverberations of the LDS Church's stance on LGBT issues.”

His “hunch,” he said, “is that LDS attitudes on LGBT matters will be much like those toward gender equality: on average, lagging behind the rest of the country, but still moving in the same direction.”

The leaders of 1978 today need to decide if their cultural racism homophobia is a hill they want the Church to die on.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Riess - done more than Apostles to find out why people l

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I think you need to change the title of your OP to:

"Riess -publishes more than Apostles to find out why people leave."

The Church is constantly polling members and conducting surveys to measure all sorts of attitudes and opinions from its members. We just had a thread on this the other day here.

Here is a Mormonleaks link showing a survey of how Mormon youth use the internet.

The Church is constantly polling. I mean what else are they supposed to do? It's not like they can just ask God what the problems are and how to solve them now it?

The Church just don't release the information, probably because it isn't faith promoting. Notice they have even stopped announcing the membership numbers in conference, instead pointing people to their website for that information. I suspect that soon that information will not be available publicly.

How quickly the narrative has changed from the "Church taking over the earth" to "only the elect will listen".
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Phaedrus Ut
_Emeritus
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:55 pm

Re: Riess - done more than Apostles to find out why people l

Post by _Phaedrus Ut »

My grandparents and other Mormons in their area seemed to have a real casual relationship with the WoW. They were farmers and blue collar workers that casually drank coffee and wine while holding callings in the ward. There seems to be a 50 year window where strict adherence to the WoW was perceived as the only option. Millennials seem to be trending back towards treating the WoW as suggestions not commandments.
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: Riess publishes more than Apostles on why people leave.

Post by _Gadianton »

To me that's an astounding and unexpected statistic. I would have guessed 1-5% being generous. 40%? Even though I drink coffee now -- I'm on the low end -- I still have problems with what a conventional coffee maker looks like. It feels very wrong.

Fence Sitter: these internal surveys, is there any information you have one way or another about accuracy? my first thought is that even if it's anonymous, if the church is polling you there'd be a tendency to lie. maybe that's unjustified on my part, but seems like it would be that way to me.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Riess publishes more than Apostles on why people leave.

Post by _I have a question »

Gadianton wrote:To me that's an astounding and unexpected statistic. I would have guessed 1-5% being generous. 40%? Even though I drink coffee now -- I'm on the low end -- I still have problems with what a conventional coffee maker looks like. It feels very wrong.

Fence Sitter: these internal surveys, is there any information you have one way or another about accuracy? my first thought is that even if it's anonymous, if the church is polling you there'd be a tendency to lie. maybe that's unjustified on my part, but seems like it would be that way to me.


To add, I think it’s important to see who the Church is polling. I suspect the Church is polling attending members, whereas Riess is getting feedback from those who have left. The other element is, as you say, the Church reaching out to you as a member using your registered details might prompt you to be cautious in your response. A protected survey by an independent person where your comments cannot be traced back by the institution might loosen your tongue a little more.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Riess publishes more than Apostles on why people leave.

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Gadianton wrote:To me that's an astounding and unexpected statistic. I would have guessed 1-5% being generous. 40%? Even though I drink coffee now -- I'm on the low end -- I still have problems with what a conventional coffee maker looks like. It feels very wrong.

Fence Sitter: these internal surveys, is there any information you have one way or another about accuracy? my first thought is that even if it's anonymous, if the church is polling you there'd be a tendency to lie. maybe that's unjustified on my part, but seems like it would be that way to me.


I have no more information on them than anyone else. I suspect the church can afford to pay for surveys done by competent people who would be aware of such pitfalls. I can only imagine the gold mine of sociological data the church has. I am sure they know precisely the numbers and tendencies in a variety of categories, as is evidenced by this document. Here, for example, is a link to a 26 page Mormonleaks document from 2013 showing the results of variety of categories on how "Active LDS Households" use the internet and on what kind of devices. One thing that immediately jumps out at me in this report is across the top of the first page we see:
"RESEARCH INFORMATION DIVISION"

Right there you know the church has a dedicated "division" for research of this type. Whether that is one guy in a cubby somewhere or an entire floor on the COB is anyone's guess.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: Riess publishes more than Apostles on why people leave.

Post by _Maksutov »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Gadianton wrote:To me that's an astounding and unexpected statistic. I would have guessed 1-5% being generous. 40%? Even though I drink coffee now -- I'm on the low end -- I still have problems with what a conventional coffee maker looks like. It feels very wrong.

Fence Sitter: these internal surveys, is there any information you have one way or another about accuracy? my first thought is that even if it's anonymous, if the church is polling you there'd be a tendency to lie. maybe that's unjustified on my part, but seems like it would be that way to me.


I have no more information on them than anyone else. I suspect the church can afford to pay for surveys done by competent people who would be aware of such pitfalls. I can only imagine the gold mine of sociological data the church has. I am sure they know precisely the numbers and tendencies in a variety of categories, as is evidenced by this document. Here, for example, is a link to a 26 page Mormonleaks document from 2013 showing the results of variety of categories on how "Active LDS Households" use the internet and on what kind of devices. One thing that immediately jumps out at me in this report is across the top of the first page we see:
"RESEARCH INFORMATION DIVISION"

Right there you know the church has a dedicated "division" for research of this type. Whether that is one guy in a cubby somewhere or an entire floor on the COB is anyone's guess.



Shhhhhh. Don't let DHO know. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Riess publishes more than Apostles on why people leave.

Post by _I have a question »

Fence Sitter wrote:I have no more information on them than anyone else. I suspect the church can afford to pay for surveys done by competent people who would be aware of such pitfalls. I can only imagine the gold mine of sociological data the church has. I am sure they know precisely the numbers and tendencies in a variety of categories, as is evidenced by this document. Here, for example, is a link to a 26 page Mormonleaks document from 2013 showing the results of variety of categories on how "Active LDS Households" use the internet and on what kind of devices. One thing that immediately jumps out at me in this report is across the top of the first page we see:
"RESEARCH INFORMATION DIVISION"

Right there you know the church has a dedicated "division" for research of this type. Whether that is one guy in a cubby somewhere or an entire floor on the COB is anyone's guess.

That’s my point, they’re researching the converted.

In World War Two bomber command were doing research (sorry Dallin) into how to armour planes to prevent them being shot down. They reviewed the bullet holes in the returning planes and determined to armour the planes where the bullet holes were. Until one bright spark pointed out that those bullet holes hadn’t caused the plane to crash, and that actually they should be reinforcing the areas on the returning planes where there were no bullet holes.

The Church’s “Research Information Division” is using data from planes that return each week, instead of considering where the holes were that caused some planes not to return. They are looking in exactly the wrong place.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Symmachus
_Emeritus
Posts: 1520
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: Riess publishes more than Apostles on why people leave.

Post by _Symmachus »

For years I have had a very unhealthy habit of listening to BYU Speeches while running or commuting—especially the earliest ones available on that site. A side effect of that unhealthy practice is that I have listened to all of Benson's speeches going back to the 1950s, a time when Church leaders were more forthright in public because less constrained by their own institutional norms. It is an unhealthy habit, as I say, but its effects can be salutary for this topic, because what you will find if you listen to some of those speeches is that the Church has always been battling coffee-drinking among faithful members and that Church leaders have much lower expectations than they now lead members to believe. To an audience of BYU students in the early 1960s, Ezra Taft Benson related a conversation with a non-Mormon religious leader and bragged to him about the Church's 30% weekly activity rate (as I remember, it was a set-up to encourage the students to get it even higher).

That was of course before the thirty-year surge (or however long it was), but to me this news is telling us nothing more than that that surge was atypical (to the extent that it was even real rather than inflated). This quote jumps out at me:

“define their ‘Mormon’ identity more in terms of social integration and participation with the Saints than in terms of strict compliance with church rules and requirements [as the preceding generations did].” Riess characterized this general posture as “hold[ing] institutional authority more lightly,” he said, which Mauss described as being more “laid back.”


That is exactly the kind of Mormon you see Brigham Young railing against in the 19th century. It's also the kind of Mormon that Church leaders in the 1950s and 1960s were attempting to school and correct in those BYU speeches. Once again, the rule-rigid intellectuals, obsessed with forms and structure, assume everyone else is like them and should be like them, and they are shocked to find that most people aren't. Places like this give a very skewed picture because most people come here not merely as disaffected Mormons but as disaffected devout Mormons. But most Mormons aren't that devout and never have been. Of course, they want to connect this to a political issue, but the fact is that most Mormons are consumer-bots trying to satisfy their wants and desires, just like everyone else, with as little effort as possible. There is not a political reason driving the fact that most Mormons don't put a lot of effort into something that only occasionally satisfies their wants and desires.

I also suspect there is a lot of projection going on here to cover up what is basically self-selection: Riess et al. are only going to be able to get data from people who care enough to fill out their lengthy survey, and such people are likely to be people already closer to people like Riess. There are no forums out there or convenient labels for "normal people born Mormon who occasionally participate but drink coffee" or "Mormons who go every week but don't think about it and are on their phone most of the time and drink coffee and alcohol when the occasions present themselves" or "Yeah, I'm Mormon but that's not really what I think about most of the time." That describes most of the Mormons that I have known, certainly most in my family, and yet I can't imagine any of them saying, "yeah I'll do 130 question survey about the Mormonism I don't take that seriously for five bucks."
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Riess publishes more than Apostles on why people leave.

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I have a question wrote:That’s my point, they’re researching the converted.



No doubt their emphasis is on tithe payers and how to make them happy, but we also know from the recent leak of a 2012ish meeting where they talked about statistics showing how fast the youth are leaving, that they are looking at a larger picture with their surveys. I can't find a link to that recent meeting but it was in a recent thread either here or over at MAD.
I would be surprised if the only people they were surveying were active LDS. That would just be plain stupid from a marketing point of view. They know their growth numbers are down, especially in their bread and butter money making places like the U.S. I have to believe they are trying to get an idea of why those people are leaving.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Post Reply