Cry Me A River

[_Gadianton]

. As far as I understand the Mormon Elohim is only a sort of superhuman alien. I think I'm agreeing with most of the world's theists in counting Mormonism as a form of atheism,

I've seen that argument made against Mormons, then again as Lou Midgley (and a lengthy tradition of this) argued a few days ago, theology is a heresy and so goes for the theistic God. On the other hand, at the recent Freedom Fesitival, DCP agreed with an unwitting Michael Shermer who proffered the tried-and-true logic of an advanced godlike race a little ahead of us existing. There are websites out there today I'm pretty sure where Mormons go down this path.

Not to get dogmatic on a single topic, but consider the implications for the fictional Book of Mormon (for Mormons who accept the advanced alien logic) if Moroni was an advanced Alien with plates and a story, a piece of technology Joseph called a Seer Stone, but the events of the Book of Mormon never happened. It's a little easier to imagine God the Apex Predator using deception to achieve his ends.

[_krose]

... I can't guess why such a God would do anything. I can't expect such a God to derail cosmic plans for any of my little wants. For practical purposes, the presence of such a God is not so different from absence...

Yes. This right here.

I see no reliable evidence of a god that takes any interest in earth life or interferes with it in any way. Maybe the universe had a creator, maybe it did not. But either way, such a creator is pretty clearly ‘hands off’ after setting it all in motion.

So even if the universe and all life therein were created for some unknown (and unknowable) reason, what difference does it make to our lives now if such a being exists? And what difference does it make whether we believe or don’t believe in this hypothetical hands-off creator god? I certainly don’t see any.

[_huckelberry]

To know much about how the real universe works, and yet also believe that it was all made and it is all sustained by God, means that the God in whom one believes must be unimaginably far beyond human understanding.

I can't guess why such a God would do anything. I can't expect such a God to derail cosmic plans for any of my little wants. For practical purposes, the presence of such a God is not so different from absence. And the kindly old man in the sky who will arrange things nicely for me just because I believe the right things is no less an idol for being carved from imagination instead of from wood. At least some of the sober bleakness of atheism is also incumbent on modern theists, in my view.

Physics Guy,

It was at age 14 or so that for me a fascination with stars gave me enough sense of the immensity of the out there that the idea of god was problematic. I am a believer but I realize that there are portions of my mind which suspect there is no god. I do not try to kill that portion. I see it like a good friend.

I think it is clear that if there is God then what that refers to is something very different than us and beyond our comprehension. I have noticed that is pretty standard thought in theism. I do not share the idea that a god that big and different could not care for us. I think if God is as big as all that it is possible that God incompasses care for creatures. I suspect that Gods immensity might incline God to be less impressed with human individual's wishes and vanities. I agree completely with your observation,"the kindly old man in the sky who will arrange things nicely for me just because I believe the right things is no less an idol for being carved from imagination instead of from wood."

I believe God has purpose for the whole human family and by extension the rest of creation. We are invited to participate but that carries no promise that everything will go nicely if we do.

[_Amore]

The problem is semantics. In word or ignor-ant labels - there may be “theists and atheists.” Yet in practice, “all have faith but not all are conscious of having faith.” As Paul Tillech explained, god is your ultimate concern - what you worship or prioritize & the question is not whether you have such a highest priority- but rather if your ultimate concerns is idolatrous (not truly the highest GOoD) or not.

God is a word to describe truth, love and much more (800+ attributes of God in the Bible alone). How absurd to say you don’t believe in truth or love. I expect that to my dying day, I’ll still be learning about love, truth and other aspects of God. But one basic explanation of God helps. It uses the symbols in the Wizard of Oz...

1) Brain: Intelligent Design. Obvious - from the trillions of microbes within our bodies - to the planetary systems.

2) Heart: you experience God within you (Luke 17:21). Where else would you feel God or anything? How can you deny the inner experience of inspiration within you or others?

3) Courage. This is the strawman logical fallacy some use to reject God. How can one pray and find their car keys... while a mother’s prayer for her starving child goes unanswered? We are God’s hands. God is love - active love expressed - courage to follow promptings to help others - or cowardice to not.

[_Nightlion]

... I can't guess why such a God would do anything. I can't expect such a God to derail cosmic plans for any of my little wants. For practical purposes, the presence of such a God is not so different from absence...

Yes. This right here.

I see no reliable evidence of a god that takes any interest in earth life or interferes with it in any way. Maybe the universe had a creator, maybe it did not. But either way, such a creator is pretty clearly ‘hands off’ after setting it all in motion.

So even if the universe and all life therein were created for some unknown (and unknowable) reason, what difference does it make to our lives now if such a being exists? And what difference does it make whether we believe or don’t believe in this hypothetical hands-off creator god? I certainly don’t see any.

God is not a hands off God. The entire point of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to draw people to make the acceptable sacrifice that they might have what to do with the living and true God. Nothing proves God's reality better than his visitation (an unseen presence) and power (unmistakably so) that wrought down upon you body, mind and spirit his promised (according to Jesus) new creation that results in you having a new body, mind and spirit, alive with God's sanctification and multiple gifts and powers. This is the event scripture details abundantly where prophets and saints are thusly made. The Book of Mormon demonstrates this better than any scripture.

The natural man who desires nothing of this sort is vaunted up in his arrogance to feel no need for it. God give us weakness (to his chosen he does) so that they will seek a remedy. That draws them to come unto Christ and take his name with full purpose of heart, doing all that is commanded in the faith of obtaining this hope in Christ and unction from the very creator of the Universe. That is as intimate as you can get. God is not far off and uninterested. He is all about making up his chosen, chosen from the beginning. The overburden of the NOT CHOSEN will just have to continue from eternity to eternity with the ever present possibility of one here and another there arousing within them the wherewithal to believe and seek a better creation.

[_fetchface]

Wtf does the title of this thread have to do with the content? Who is crying and why are they doing it?

[_Nightlion]

Wtf does the title of this thread have to do with the content? Who is crying and why are they doing it?

All the ungodly will 'eventually' weep and wail and gnash their teeth in self disappointment that they were beguiled and made subject to blaspheme the living God, lifting up their heads in the torture of their dismal condign punishments.

[_fetchface]

All the ungodly will 'eventually' weep and wail and gnash their teeth in self disappointment that they were beguiled and made subject to blaspheme the living God, lifting up their heads in the torture of their dismal condign punishments.

Well, imagining myself in that situation, I don't see why crying would help. I'd just mostly be disappointed and sad that God was so morally small that he couldn't understand that having right or wrong beliefs about unknowable things doesn't make you good or bad, it simply makes you mistaken or not.

I'd just be sad that a moral infant was ruling the universe with an iron fist.

[_Maksutov]

All the ungodly will 'eventually' weep and wail and gnash their teeth in self disappointment that they were beguiled and made subject to blaspheme the living God, lifting up their heads in the torture of their dismal condign punishments.

Well, imagining myself in that situation, I don't see why crying would help. I'd just mostly be disappointed and sad that God was so morally small that he couldn't understand that having right or wrong beliefs about unknowable things doesn't make you good or bad, it simply makes you mistaken or not.

I'd just be sad that a moral infant was ruling the universe with an iron fist.

The problem is that NL and other believers don't recognize an abusive relationship with their deity. No matter what a torturing, murdering monster their god is, they must love and accept them.

Uh, no.

[_fetchface]

The problem is that Nightlion and other believers don't recognize an abusive relationship with their deity. No matter what a torturing, murdering monster their god is, they must love and accept them.

Uh, no.

Yeah, when they describe what God is going to do, I have to wonder how putting Satan in charge would be different. Would he not have his favored group of pleasers and punish those who defied his petty whims?

Where does this surety that the right man's in charge come from? I mean, I see it in my wife as well (a much more liberal and universalist believer, but she "knows" God is good, despite the baby killing in the Old Testament and all that). I just wasn't born with the arrogance to claim I know any of this, I guess. If there is a God, he might well be a giant douche. Why the hell not?

But apparently I'm evil for pointing out that assuming God is perfect doesn't make any sense to me. I'm committing some great offence to the most powerful (and sensitive) being in the universe by demanding that something make sense to me before I believe it.

I demand that God explain why he ordered the killing of babies in the Old Testament, and apparently I'm going to be made to cry a river some day for this by a very powerful silverback gorilla.