Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

[_krose]

Carl Saigon once said...

Was it something about his sister, “Miss”?

(Sorry. Couldn’t resist. “Carl Saigon” is a fun typo that makes me smile.)

[_Lemmie]

I think you're referring to pretending to believe....

Believing in Santa Claus won't make him real.

Didn't it? How many movies do we have about Santa? How many stories are told? How gifts are given in his name?

If Santa isn't real, what is real about America, or humans, or humanity? It's all just consciousness pretending to be something that it's not.

Personally, I don't think they should have remade Stephen King's "Pet Sematary". That movie was way too real the first time. I hear that if they recreate the 'Sematary' just one more time, the power to revive the dead will become real in every Cemetery across the country, just like Santa. I don't think we would survive that zombie apocalypse.

You have never had a pet come back to you? Sad.

Famous last words in a Stephen King movie! His scripts rarely let such hubris go unrewarded.

Really, though, what is it about the number of movies about Santa that makes Santa real?

[_SPG]

Really, though, what is it about the number of movies about Santa that makes Santa real?

It's the scientific concept of, "If is has influence, it is real."

So, why does Marlboro pay millions of dollar to create the "Marlboro Man" if not for the very real (in human terms) effect that he has. He is considered to be the most influential person that doesn't actually exist. God is like number 8, Santa about 60.

Marlboro Man is a gay model, that lives in a New York high rise, (I think.) But, he sells billions in product.

But, why did Joan of Arc do what she did? We like to she was crazy. But, Archangel Micheal told her to act. Do archangel exist? If people find inspiration in them, how do you attribute the influence? If Archangel Micheal isn't real, is the Statue of Liberty? Is the pope real, just because he happens to be a living statue instead of a stone or copper one? Is the president real? It's just an idea that we apply to a person. He has power that are not his own, but has it because we who believe in him give it him.

We argue if Jesus was actually real, or if he was merely a composite of different persons of his time. If the President of the LDS real? He is a merely endowed with ideals Joseph Smith come up with. Like any position of power in the world.

So, yes, Santa is real. He is used to promote products, jolly spirit, hope, magic thinking, and miracles.

Prove to me he isn't real.

[_honorentheos]

The myth of Santa certainly is real, with real influence. Saying there is literally a male, human-like being who lives in a magic micro-kingdom at the north pole of the world and uses flying Reindeer to deliver presents to children who are raised in nations influenced by European-Christian culture isn't saying the same thing. It's playing loose and fast with language to truncate that into saying, "Santa is real."

[_honorentheos]

Does something have to be true to believe it, or could you believe it just for the effect of believing it?

There's a contradiction in asking if a person can believe IN a thing that may not itself be "true" because they realize there is some effect that belief in the thing provides.

The belief isn't in the truth of the thing, but in the effect of belief in the thing. What one has true, justified belief in is the effectiveness of belief. So one isn't so much believing in the thing as finding value in invoking the effects of belief. As has been debated much on this board, it's effectively asking if a person can tap into the power of the myth without believing there is objective reality backing the myth beyond it's existence as an artifact of culture with power that exists within its parent culture only.

The Santa myth has power within cultures where it exists. Outside of those cultures, the effect isn't there to give any other meaning to it's existing as real. I couldn't show up in the Amazon and trade Christmas stockings for food with a tribe unfamiliar with the Santa myth unless they find some form of value in their own culture for ill-fitting stockings I guess.

[_Gadianton]

I don't feel that stupid for having been a believing Mormon. Had i been born Baptist, Catholic, or Flat Earth I would have believed what I was brought up with, at least for a while.

Does something have to be true to believe it, or could you believe it just for the effect of believing it?

It doesn't have to be true but you have to believe it's true.

Purpose, world domination, understanding of the universe

Name it, belief could makes it yours.

Why SPG, have you been listening to Arch Enemy again?

[_SPG]

I couldn't show up in the Amazon and trade Christmas stockings for food with a tribe unfamiliar with the Santa myth unless they find some form of value in their own culture for ill-fitting stockings I guess.

But you couldn't trade dollars, or Beyonce mp3s, or a microwave, or about 99% of things we valve, use, and define our culture with.

So, is that your definition of real? It must be real to all consciousness? That's Ok, because I use that definition too, but the result of that logic EVERYTHING is an illusion, and nothing is real.

Einstein said that all things are relative. So I can accept Santa is only real to those that believe in him. I can accept that God only works for people that believe in him. I accept that facts only apply to those that believe in them.

So Santa, him real.

[_Gadianton]

Einstein said that all things are relative. So I can accept Santa is only real to those that believe in him.

that's called the fallacy of equivocation, in case you were wondering.

[_Meadowchik]

I don't feel stupid for automatically believing in the way of my family and closest community. I was surviving like I was built to survive. Yet I feel very glad that, when comfortable, I pushed myself enough intellectually and emotionally to genuinely test Mormonism. It wasn't intentionally a test, I was actually just trying to be more good. But I am glad because that test helped prove Mormonism false.

Of course, I know that people view Mormonism as useful because it provides some incentives. Comfort, certainty, and and a sense of purpose do have value. But I think that the balance favors leaving for people who have invested less intensely or for a shorter amount of time, because there are negatives that often go unnoticed until they become very, very damaging.

[_Res Ipsa]

Einstein said that all things are relative. So I can accept Santa is only real to those that believe in him.

that's called the fallacy of equivocation, in case you were wondering.

Not to mention that Einstein said no such thing.