Indoctrination-is it really so deep?

[_kairos]

I am watching conference and am mystified that the music and prayers are so childlike! It is I believe a sign of how deep the indoctrination in the Morg runs. From early childhood the Mormon stories of its beginnings, Joseph Smith and his visions , the gold plates, the Book of Mormon etc are simple
stories hammered into the psyche of the child along with subtle pressure early and overt pressure with guilt applied as needed latet to assure conformity. In conference primary hymns like " I am a child of God" are used to bring the thoughts of the adults back to that ideal of
Mormon simple but profound,in their minds, beliefs. Even conference prayers have 30000 folding their arms as if in primary and the cookie cutter prayers offered up by GA's and leaders from Relief Society and primary with
words like thankful and grateful ever present in every prayer- watch and listen if you don't believe me
So imho the indoctrination runs deep but as we know from resignation and walk away rates increasing, this psychologically damaging system
is being overcome- you here are proof that truth about the Mormon
scam is being overcome as the church continues to use the methods of psychological indictrination to keep the flock in the
fold.
Give yourself a pat on the back - I give you all a high
five for overcoming evil with truth! I am still working on my
immediate family!

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

[_Mormonicious]

Oh yeah, it is.

SALT LAKE CITY — Russell M. Nelson, president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, offered some tough love during the Sunday morning session of the faith’s 189th Annual General Conference.

Speaking of those who’ve left the church or haven’t been willing to investigate its truths, Nelson warned that time was running out.

“Now, as president of His church, I plead with you who have distanced yourselves from the Church and with you who have not yet really sought to know that the Savior’s Church has been restored,” he said. “Do the spiritual work to find out for yourselves, and please do it now. Time is running out.” https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/ ... 7e0d3.html

The ole boogie man speech. He's a gonna git ya, so you better believe again or for the first time.

Oh and by the way, that ole Biblical Jebus talk about everyone getting the Resurrection prize, well it ain't that good . . . "Nelson also said that while the Savior did promise, “In my Father’s house are many mansions,” those who choose not to make the necessary covenants with God are “settling for a most meager roof over your head throughout all eternity.”

Nelson disabused the notion that all people will be with their loved ones after death. Resurrection assures that all will live forever, but “much more” is required for the privilege of exaltation with family, he said.", like giving me money so Wendy, "lesbian licken' Sheri and I can go a travel'en

[_Amore]

I was thinking similarly - when you can hear laughs when things aren’t that funny - they just offer some relief from the shame, boredom and stifling dogma. It’s like robotic children - who laugh only at things that they’re encouraged to laugh at. If the audience was filled with, say students of logic, who were told to laugh at every logical fallacy or cognitive distortion - I’d WANT to go to conference - in person! Because laughter is contagious - such bs-ing could be seens as funny, & humor could help. (Maybe with the caveat of motivating and healthy emotional reasoning.)

[_kairos]

bump for further comments

[_mentalgymnast]

bump for further comments

Repent or be damned. That about says it. And the wicked take the truth to be hard. That may be the jist of what he was saying. He may have soft peddled it a bit...but essentially that's what was being said in my opinion.

Regards,
MG

[_Shulem]

I am watching conference and am mystified that the music and prayers are so childlike! It is I believe a sign of how deep the indoctrination in the Morg runs. From early childhood the Mormon stories of its beginnings, Joseph Smith and his visions , the gold plates, the Book of Mormon etc are simple
stories hammered into the psyche of the child along with subtle pressure early and overt pressure with guilt applied as needed latet to assure conformity. In conference primary hymns like " I am a child of God" are used to bring the thoughts of the adults back to that ideal of
Mormon simple but profound,in their minds, beliefs. Even conference prayers have 30000 folding their arms as if in primary and the cookie cutter prayers offered up by GA's and leaders from Relief Society and primary with
words like thankful and grateful ever present in every prayer- watch and listen if you don't believe me
So imho the indoctrination runs deep but as we know from resignation and walk away rates increasing, this psychologically damaging system
is being overcome- you here are proof that truth about the Mormon
scam is being overcome as the church continues to use the methods of psychological indictrination to keep the flock in the
fold.
Give yourself a pat on the back - I give you all a high
five for overcoming evil with truth! I am still working on my
immediate family!

Thank you. And that was a wonderful post.

[_Shulem]

Repent or be damned. That about says it. And the wicked take the truth to be hard. That may be the jist of what he was saying. He may have soft peddled it a bit...but essentially that's what was being said in my opinion.

I'm already damned. I live in wickedness and it's happiness. I drink when I want. I puff (don't inhale) a cigarette when I want. I drink coffee every morning. Wine with dinner. I look at porn as often as I want. And best of all, I'm in a homosexual relationship. Wickedness is happiness because I'm happy.

Are you now going to attempt to tell me that I'm not really happy, mentalgymnast? Are you going to do that? Are you going to tell me that my happiness is not genuine and that my joy is false? Are you going to tell me to go back to that church in which I was so miserable? Are you? I certainly hope not. Because I'm not going to. I'm going to remain in my happy state, thank you.

[_grindael]

People that have to label everything are the ones with the problems. Whose "truth"? The lies invented by Jo Smith and carried on by those who were duped by them? And of course those that don't believe the lies of Jo Smith are labeled "wicked", as if the ones calling them that, know anything about such people. The thing is and I think I can put this forth confidently, those who leave the church have investigated its "truths", which turned out to be lies. And isn't it funny that every Mormon "prophet" claims that "time is running out"! Smith claimed to be commanded by God in 1833 to write this utter garbage, and that his prophetic calling depended on it being the truth and coming to pass:

For some length of time I have been car[e]fully viewing the state of things as now appear throug[h]out our christian Land and have looked at it with feelings of the most painful anxiety while upon the one hand beholding the manifested withdrawal of Gods holy Spirit and the vail of stupidity which seems to be drawn over the hearts of the people and upon the other hand beholding the Judgments of God that have swept and are still sweeping hundreds and thousands of our race (and I fear unprepared) down to the shades of death with this solemn and alarming fact before me I am led to exclaim [“]O that my head were waters and mine ey[e]s a fountain of tears that I might weep day and night &c,” I think that it is high time for a christian world to awake out of sleep and cry mightely to that God day and night whose anger we have Justly incured. ...

The time has at last come arived when the God of Abraham of Isaac and of Jacob has set his hand again the seccond time to recover the remnants of his people which have [p. 14] been left from Assyria, and from Egypt and from Pathros &.c. and from the Islands of the sea and with them to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles and establish that covenant with them which was promised when their sins should be taken away. see Romans 11, 25, 26, & 27 and also Jeremiah 31. 31, 32, & 33...

Has not the pride highmindedness and unbelief of the Gentiles provoked the holy one of Israel to withdraw his holy spirit from them and send forth his Judgments to scourge them for their wickedness; this is certianly the case, Christ said to his deciples Mark 16, 17 & 18 that these signs should follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out Devils they shall speap [speak] with new tongues they shall take up serpants and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover, and also in connection with this read 1 Corinthians 12 Chapt, By the foregoing testamonies or through the glass of the foregoing testamonies we may look at the Christian world and see the apostacy there has been from [p. 15] the Apostolic platform, and who can look at this, and and not exclaim in the language of Isaiah, [“]the earth is defiled under the inhabitants thereof because they have transgressed the Laws; changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant”,,,

The Lord has declared to his servants some Eighteen months since that he was then withdrawing his spirit from the earth, and we can see that such is the fact for not only the churches are dwindling away, but there are no convers[i]ons, or but very few, and this is not all, the governments of the earth are thrown into confusion & division, and distruction to the eye of the spiritual beholder seemes to be writen by the finger of an invisable hand in Large capitals upon almost evry thing we behold ...

The Book of Mormon is a reccord of the forefathers of our western Tribes of Indians, having been found through the ministration of an holy Angel translated into our own Language by the gift and power of God, after having been hid up in the earth for the last fourteen hundred years containing the word of God, which was delivered unto them, By it we learn that our western tribes of Indians are desendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the Land of America is a promised land unto them, and unto it all the tribes of Israel will comewith as many of the gentiles as shall comply with the requesitions of the new co[v]enant. But the tribe of Judah will return to old Jerusalem, The City, of Zion, spoken of by David in the 102 Psalm will be built upon the Land of America and the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to it with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads, and then they will be delivered from the overflowing scourge that shall pass through the Land...

And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such [p. 17] a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the hystory of our nation pestalence hail famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked off this generation from off the face of this Land to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country— The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requsitions of the new covenant have already commenced gathering togethe[r] to Zion which is in the State of Missouri. Therefore I declare unto you the warning which the lord has commanded me to declare unto this generation, rembring [remembering] that the eyes of my maker are upon me and that to him I am accountabl for evry word I say wishing nothing worse to my fellow men then their eternal salvation therefore fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his Judgment is come, <​Repent ye​> Repent, ye and imbrace the everlasting Covenant and flee to Zion before the overflowing scourge overtake you, For there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken fulfilled Rem[em]ber these things, call upon the Lord while he is near and seek him while he may be foundis the exhortation of your unworthy servant
Joseph Smith Jr https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ary-1833/5

None of this was "fulfilled" or ever will be. All the people that were alive in the time of Jo Smith are dead. And the "ten tribes" didn't " return from the "north country" and come to the New Jerusalem which was never built for them to come to. The "wicked" were not swept off the face of the land before the last person who was alive when Smith published this, died.

This letter is the biggest gaffe of Smith's career. I mean it PROVES he was a false prophet and didn't know anything. And then there is the absolute BS about the AmerIndians. They are not the descendants of the Tribe of Joseph and never were. Smith here claims that ALL OF THEM WERE. Another LIE. And here is the kicker. Only part of this letter was published, which pissed off Smith so he wrote another letter to Saxton which reads,

To N C Sexton [Noah C. Saxton] Rochester
Dear sir
I was somewhat disappointed on receiving my paper with only a part of my letter inserted in that it. The letter which I wrote you for publication I wrote by the commandment of God, and I am quite anxious to have it all laid before the public for it is of importance to them, But I have no clame upon you, neither do I wish to urge you beyond that which is reasonable to do it. I have only to appeal to your extended geneorsity to all religious societies that claim that Christ has come in the flesh and also tell you what will be the consequen[c]es of a neglect to publish it— some parts of the letter were very severe upon the wickedness of sectarianism— I acknowledge and the truth, remember is hard and severe against all iniquity and wickedness, but this is no reason why it should not be published but the very reason why it should, It lays the axe at the root of the tree and I long to see many of the sturdy oaks which I have long cumbred the ground fall prostrate. I now say unto you that if you wish to clear your garments from the blood of you[r] readers I exhort you to publish that letter entire but if not the sin be upon your head—

Accept sir the good wishes and tender regard of your unworthy servant—
Joseph Smith Jr
Kirtland 12th Feby. 1833 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ary-1833/2

According to Smith, God's "spirit" has been gone for a long time....

Jo wrote it by commandment. He prophesies in the name of Jesus. He does it all. And it was all a big flop. None of what he claimed came to pass for the reasons he said. This is the "truth" of Mormonism. A lie built on the ramblings of a money-digging con man.

[_mentalgymnast]

People that have to label everything are the ones with the problems. Whose "truth"? The lies invented by Jo Smith and carried on by those who were duped by them? And of course those that don't believe the lies of Jo Smith are labeled "wicked", as if the ones calling them that, know anything about such people. The thing is and I think I can put this forth confidently, those who leave the church have investigated its "truths", which turned out to be lies. And isn't it funny that every Mormon "prophet" claims that "time is running out"! Smith claimed to be commanded by God in 1833 to write this utter garbage, and that his prophetic calling depended on it being the truth and coming to pass:

For some length of time I have been car[e]fully viewing the state of things as now appear throug[h]out our christian Land and have looked at it with feelings of the most painful anxiety while upon the one hand beholding the manifested withdrawal of Gods holy Spirit and the vail of stupidity which seems to be drawn over the hearts of the people and upon the other hand beholding the Judgments of God that have swept and are still sweeping hundreds and thousands of our race (and I fear unprepared) down to the shades of death with this solemn and alarming fact before me I am led to exclaim [“]O that my head were waters and mine ey[e]s a fountain of tears that I might weep day and night &c,” I think that it is high time for a christian world to awake out of sleep and cry mightely to that God day and night whose anger we have Justly incured. ...

The time has at last come arived when the God of Abraham of Isaac and of Jacob has set his hand again the seccond time to recover the remnants of his people which have [p. 14] been left from Assyria, and from Egypt and from Pathros &.c. and from the Islands of the sea and with them to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles and establish that covenant with them which was promised when their sins should be taken away. see Romans 11, 25, 26, & 27 and also Jeremiah 31. 31, 32, & 33...

Has not the pride highmindedness and unbelief of the Gentiles provoked the holy one of Israel to withdraw his holy spirit from them and send forth his Judgments to scourge them for their wickedness; this is certianly the case, Christ said to his deciples Mark 16, 17 & 18 that these signs should follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out Devils they shall speap [speak] with new tongues they shall take up serpants and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover, and also in connection with this read 1 Corinthians 12 Chapt, By the foregoing testamonies or through the glass of the foregoing testamonies we may look at the Christian world and see the apostacy there has been from [p. 15] the Apostolic platform, and who can look at this, and and not exclaim in the language of Isaiah, [“]the earth is defiled under the inhabitants thereof because they have transgressed the Laws; changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant”,,,

The Lord has declared to his servants some Eighteen months since that he was then withdrawing his spirit from the earth, and we can see that such is the fact for not only the churches are dwindling away, but there are no convers[i]ons, or but very few, and this is not all, the governments of the earth are thrown into confusion & division, and distruction to the eye of the spiritual beholder seemes to be writen by the finger of an invisable hand in Large capitals upon almost evry thing we behold ...

The Book of Mormon is a reccord of the forefathers of our western Tribes of Indians, having been found through the ministration of an holy Angel translated into our own Language by the gift and power of God, after having been hid up in the earth for the last fourteen hundred years containing the word of God, which was delivered unto them, By it we learn that our western tribes of Indians are desendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the Land of America is a promised land unto them, and unto it all the tribes of Israel will comewith as many of the gentiles as shall comply with the requesitions of the new co[v]enant. But the tribe of Judah will return to old Jerusalem, The City, of Zion, spoken of by David in the 102 Psalm will be built upon the Land of America and the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to it with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads, and then they will be delivered from the overflowing scourge that shall pass through the Land...

And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such [p. 17] a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the hystory of our nation pestalence hail famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked off this generation from off the face of this Land to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country— The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requsitions of the new covenant have already commenced gathering togethe[r] to Zion which is in the State of Missouri. Therefore I declare unto you the warning which the lord has commanded me to declare unto this generation, rembring [remembering] that the eyes of my maker are upon me and that to him I am accountabl for evry word I say wishing nothing worse to my fellow men then their eternal salvation therefore fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his Judgment is come, <​Repent ye​> Repent, ye and imbrace the everlasting Covenant and flee to Zion before the overflowing scourge overtake you, For there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken fulfilled Rem['em]ber these things, call upon the Lord while he is near and seek him while he may be foundis the exhortation of your unworthy servant
Joseph Smith Jr https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ary-1833/5

None of this was "fulfilled" or ever will be. All the people that were alive in the time of Jo Smith are dead. And the "ten tribes" didn't " return from the "north country" and come to the New Jerusalem which was never built for them to come to. The "wicked" were not swept off the face of the land before the last person who was alive when Smith published this, died.

This letter is the biggest gaffe of Smith's career. I mean it PROVES he was a false prophet and didn't know anything. And then there is the absolute BS about the AmerIndians. They are not the descendants of the Tribe of Joseph and never were. Smith here claims that ALL OF THEM WERE. Another LIE. And here is the kicker. Only part of this letter was published, which pissed off Smith so he wrote another letter to Saxton which reads,

To N C Sexton [Noah C. Saxton] Rochester
Dear sir
I was somewhat disappointed on receiving my paper with only a part of my letter inserted in that it. The letter which I wrote you for publication I wrote by the commandment of God, and I am quite anxious to have it all laid before the public for it is of importance to them, But I have no clame upon you, neither do I wish to urge you beyond that which is reasonable to do it. I have only to appeal to your extended geneorsity to all religious societies that claim that Christ has come in the flesh and also tell you what will be the consequen[c]es of a neglect to publish it— some parts of the letter were very severe upon the wickedness of sectarianism— I acknowledge and the truth, remember is hard and severe against all iniquity and wickedness, but this is no reason why it should not be published but the very reason why it should, It lays the axe at the root of the tree and I long to see many of the sturdy oaks which I have long cumbred the ground fall prostrate. I now say unto you that if you wish to clear your garments from the blood of you[r] readers I exhort you to publish that letter entire but if not the sin be upon your head—

Accept sir the good wishes and tender regard of your unworthy servant—
Joseph Smith Jr
Kirtland 12th Feby. 1833 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ary-1833/2

According to Smith, God's "spirit" has been gone for a long time....

Jo wrote it by commandment. He prophesies in the name of Jesus. He does it all. And it was all a big flop. None of what he claimed came to pass for the reasons he said. This is the "truth" of Mormonism. A lie built on the ramblings of a money-digging con man.

Hi grindael, if you don't mind I'm going to cut a paste a section of your post and highlight an area where you may want to consider not going from caps to lower case font as you chose to do in your cut and paste.

And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such [p. 17] a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the hystory of our nation pestalence hail famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked off this generation from off the face of this Land to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country— The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requsitions of the new covenant have already commenced gathering togethe[r] to Zion which is in the State of Missouri.

Where the emphasis is placed or in this case withdrawn makes a big difference in the meaning/understanding.

Also, I know you pretty much despise FAIR...but I think for the sake of full disclosure this FAIR article should be read in tandem with your material which you cut and pasted from your source.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... athered%3F

Regards,
MG