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Gadianton wrote:MG: What part of that version do you think I am rejecting?

Gad: The part that says all that Joseph did was read words that appeared in English off of a stone.

Which he did. I don't know that the process is delineated as a matter of fact. That's why I'm finding it interesting to speculate.

Regards,
MG

Maksutov wrote:Weren't there times he 'translated' without the plates, the stone or the hat?

Most of the time.

Regards,
MG

Stem wrote:

Gadianton wrote:plates --> spirit world committee --> seer stone processing --> Joseph's brain (subconscious?) --> English words on seer stone --> Joseph reads words

I'm not trying to defend MG because I think he's playing pretty fast and loose with his comments here and I find your responses and patience inherent therein quite admirable but...

If I stuffed my faced in a hat, excluding all the light, and words appeared on a stone inches from my nose, in the darkness, I don't' think I could read them.

I don't think the words were literally 'on the stone'. I would think that the words were projected onto the stone as if it were a screen or sorts. The actual 'work' or processing would have been in his brain in conjunction with the operations/systems of information retrieval and processing put in place by God. Joseph would then see the words in his 'mind's eye' with the stone as a backdrop/screen.

Anyway, that's one way of looking at it. Pun intended.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:

Gadianton wrote:
plates --> spirit world committee --> seer stone processing --> Joseph's brain (subconscious?) --> English words on seer stone --> Joseph reads words

Is this possible? Sure.

This is parallel to the basic 'flow chart' I had in my mind as I was thinking about this, yes.

Regards,
MG

Although I would tend to think that the stone itself was not actually "processing" anything. It was more or less a screen/backdrop to see the image/words on. All the heavy lifting was done through other means.

Regards,
MG

Maksutov wrote:What about all the text he generated from...from thin air as with his revelations?

I would refer you back to what Grant Hardy said. Also, I would do a check on your A priori assumptions about God and what God can and cannot do.

God you say?

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:

Maksutov wrote:What about all the text he generated from...from thin air as with his revelations?

I would refer you back to what Grant Hardy said. Also, I would do a check on your A priori assumptions about God and what God can and cannot do.

God you say?

By that logic every religion could be true because you're effectively saying that since God has no limits that anyone who makes a claim in God's name is right because who are we to say they're wrong.

These arguments basically boil down to "Sure that's what the evidence says, but what's to say that the way Joseph told us it was done was actually how God did it?"

It's just a really,really poor argument to make and one that just doesn't fit with any of the evidence we have.

MG wrote:Although I would tend to think that the stone itself was not actually "processing" anything. It was more or less a screen/backdrop to see the image/words on. All the heavy lifting was done through other means.

okay, so we're getting somewhere, finally. I can give you credit for at least being able to clarify your point, this may be a first.

plates --> black box + Joseph Smith's mind --> words on stone analogous to an epiphany -- seeing the answer to a hard math problem in your head that you didn't work out with a pencil.

Question: How do you explain the King James material in the Book of Mormon with this model?

Gadianton wrote:

MG wrote:Although I would tend to think that the stone itself was not actually "processing" anything. It was more or less a screen/backdrop to see the image/words on. All the heavy lifting was done through other means.

okay, so we're getting somewhere, finally. I can give you credit for at least being able to clarify your point, this may be a first.

Sounds a bit condescending there. Comes with territory, I guess.

Gadianton wrote:plates --> black box + Joseph Smith's mind --> words on stone analogous to an epiphany -- seeing the answer to a hard math problem in your head that you didn't work out with a pencil.

I think that we can agree that either Joseph did it on his own with some help from living breathing human beings, or there was some kind of operation/system that we can't understand...possibly even in its minute details...because it is something other than the systems/operations that we are accustomed to through observable nature and the development of technology.

Gadianton wrote:Question: How do you explain the King James material in the Book of Mormon with this model?

Either Joseph or some other living human being put it there, or there was some kind of operation/system that we can't understand...possibly even in its minute details...because it is something other than the systems/operations that we are accustomed to through nature and the development of technology.

As Hardy's quote tells us upthread, if we put God at the forefront...first, believing that He is...then the theology is IT. What some of the details are in the transmission of true theology are, we may not know. And that's OK. I'd hate to let some of the details keep me away from true theology.

Be that as it may. KJ in the Book of Mormon. That's not something that would be unexpected depending, again, on the approach you're taking to revelation and scripture. Coming back to transliteration of concepts rather than pure graphemic or symbolic transmission. If concept mapping is occurring during the translation process and Joseph Smith's mind/brain is the final stop before words appear in his mind's eye and on the stone...and knowing that Joseph had a fairly extensive knowledge scriptures located in the Bible...one could visualize (pun intended) his defaulting...on the fly...to KJ phraseology during the process of translation. When it comes to the longer passages from Isaiah and Sermon on the Mount, I think he might need a little extra help from the 'translation committee'.

How and when precedence is given to others on the committee vs. Joseph's visual on the stone, who knows? I could imagine a 'software program' in which Book of Mormon narrative from the plates, Joseph's language, and the input from the committee are all happening in tandem on the fly. Yep, that sounds amazing and even somewhat unbelievable/crazy. As I said earlier though, I would think that the processing power and ability to mesh information/language together from all quarters wouldn't be too hard for a guy who created the universe as we know it.

But I have to say, yes, it sounds far fetched.

So, again, we're left with the decision...Joseph and Co. or divine orchestration through what to us seems to be incomprehensible on its surface.

I suppose ultimately it comes down to President Hinckley's admonition that we will not find our testimony outside of the covers of the Book of Mormon but through constant study and reading/praying on the contents inside the Book of Mormon and receiving impressions/witness from the Holy Ghost.

I do believe that to be true.

Regards,
MG

Gadianton wrote:

Themis wrote:
I would fire everyone involved. Why is it God could so much better but chooses to make it look EXACTLY like Joseph is making it all up. Oh wait, maybe because that is EXACTLY what Joseph was doing. I know this thread centers on Book of Mormon production, but there is so much more and it all fits being made up.

By the time he has his elaborate neural network of Joseph Smith, and angels, and the i-rock, and everything else involved, a just a likely and much simpler explanation would be this:

God instilled a carefully crafted imagination within Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, was in fact, a conman making up the whole thing, however, unbeknownst to Joseph Smith, his imaginative production and KJV borrowings produced what would just happen to be equivalent to a translation of real Gold Plates.

The process MG is going to be left with is every bit as accidental as this explanation.

MG is just making things up. The idea that Joseph is only seeing the words on a rock is happening only in his mind has 0 evidence to support it. It's just 100% pure speculation to help him believe. This has been his formula all along. The same formula anyone can use to believe anything. Completely useless. Your example is spot on.

mentalgymnast wrote:So, again, we're left with the decision...Joseph and Co. or divine orchestration through what to us seems to be incomprehensible on its surface.

I suppose ultimately it comes down to President Hinckley's admonition that we will not find our testimony outside of the covers of the Book of Mormon but through constant study and reading/praying on the contents inside the Book of Mormon and receiving impressions/witness from the Holy Ghost.

I do believe that to be true.

Regards,
MG

Everything comes down to a decision. You are just stating the obvious. What helps us is to make good decisions is basing them on the best available evidence which you admittedly ignore. Your decision is to ignore or never learn evidence relevant to the question of LDS truth claims is yours, but I would rather seek what is really true.