DiscussMormonism.com

Themis wrote:Everything comes down to a decision. You are just stating the obvious. What helps us is to make good decisions is basing them on the best available evidence which you admittedly ignore. Your decision is to ignore or never learn evidence relevant to the question of LDS truth claims is yours, but I would rather seek what is really true.

At some point we all have to make the decision on what to do with the information in front of us. MG is spending his/her time telling us that the evidence doesn't really matter because magic might've altered what we perceive to be the process.

It's a very dishonest approach but it's the only one that can even give you a pass if you a way to make it work. That in and of itself is the most telling aspect of all.

Themis wrote:MG is just making things up. The idea that Joseph is only seeing the words on a rock is happening only in his mind has 0 evidence to support it. It's just 100% pure speculation to help him believe. This has been his formula all along. The same formula anyone can use to believe anything. Completely useless. Your example is spot on.

Well, you're right...I am speculating. That's all one can do when all the evidence is not in. As I said in my previous post, it's the theology, stupid (just patterning this statement after: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_th ... my,_stupid)...which we've all seemed to forget. Double entendre, to both the political and Mormon context.

Sure, there are common formulas that can help one believe almost anything. That's not in question. What is in question is whether or not the theology of the LDS Church is worth a spit. The theology is not worth throwing out the window because there are some unknowns in the implementation of the restoration of the gospel.

The translation of the Book of Mormon is another one of those things that one either takes on faith or doesn't (not to say that there isn't some interesting evidence or at least some interesting 'hits'). The teachings/doctrine found in the Book of Mormon is at the end of the day also taken on faith.

As Hardy has said, paraphrasing, it's the theology and message of the CofJCofLDS that is what one should be looking at primarily, not simply the mechanics of translation of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham.

Although, granted, it is interesting to speculate about. So that's what I'm doing in a public setting.

Regards,
MG

jfro18 wrote:By that logic every religion could be true because you're effectively saying that since God has no limits that anyone who makes a claim in God's name is right because who are we to say they're wrong.

Is this a thinly veiled attack on Xenu dropping a huge load of atomic bombs into volcanos?

jfro18 wrote:

Themis wrote:Everything comes down to a decision. You are just stating the obvious. What helps us is to make good decisions is basing them on the best available evidence which you admittedly ignore. Your decision is to ignore or never learn evidence relevant to the question of LDS truth claims is yours, but I would rather seek what is really true.

At some point we all have to make the decision on what to do with the information in front of us. MG is spending his/her time telling us that the evidence doesn't really matter because magic might've altered what we perceive to be the process.

I don't know that I would call it magic. That often has a negative tone/connotation. I would rather look at it as observing what we CAN see/understand and then look at how things might ultimately work according to natural law...even if it's part of a set of laws/operations/systems that we may not be able to understand.

jfro18 wrote:It's a very dishonest approach but it's the only one that can even give you a pass if you a way to make it work. That in and of itself is the most telling aspect of all.

I don't think that speculation and and having a conversation in regards to the translation (transliteration?) process of the Book of Mormon is dishonest. I'm not being dishonest in anything I'm saying. I've already admitted that I have no absolute idea whether or not the ideas I've expressed are actually TRUE. How much more honest can I be than that?

And I'm assuming that you're being honest also.

Regards,
MG

MG wrote:Joseph Smith's mind/brain is the final stop before words appear in his mind's eye and on the stone...and knowing that Joseph had a fairly extensive knowledge scriptures located in the Bible...one could visualize (pun intended) his defaulting...on the fly...to KJ phraseology during the process of translation. When it comes to the longer passages from Isaiah and Sermon on the Mount, I think he might need a little extra help from the 'translation committee'

And also:

MG wrote:How and when precedence is given to others on the committee vs. Joseph's visual on the stone, who knows?

You answered your own question above. In places where the passages are essentially lifted word-for-word, what you are trying to say is that Joseph Smith's brain can't be a repository for that, and so the information must be soldered in from elsewhere. You're suggesting that a "translation committee" takes over when Joseph Smith's memory likely can't account for the data. How does that make any sense? Why do you need a translation committee to show Joseph Smith the text of the King Jame's Bible? That wouldn't even be "translating". That would be whispering source material into Joseph Smith's ear. And it's a suggestion of primitive and obscene foolishness. Allow me to explain.

Joseph Smith is "reading (nudge nudge) words off a stone" at a rapid pace. Perhaps God is showing him a mental film of sorts of plate content, and Joseph Smith's subconscious chops the images into mentalese, and then translates into Joseph Smith's vernacular and projects words onto a stone within Joseph Smith's minds eye, and Joseph Smith consciously sees the words on the stone and reads them off. Now here come the Isaiah passages. The translation committee opens up a King James Bible -- but there's no time for that. Okay, the translation committee prepares selections of the king james Bible and has them ready to splice into the stream -- but in what format? A kind of virtual format where the words appear the same way as swords and horses appear as images to Joseph, except in this case the images are just concatenations of English letters and so Joseph Smith gets them down exactly. Fine, but why did a committee need to be involved? If the committee is involved in that production, why wouldn't they be the ones preparing the stream of other mental images to show Joseph Smith, such as horses and swords? But if they didn't perform those tasks, then God would certainly have the KJV already virtualized and just splice in the stream of words when he gets to that spot. There is nothing whatsoever in the idea of a "committee" that helps get past the KJV replications.

Gadianton wrote:In places where the passages are essentially lifted word-for-word, what you are trying to say is that Joseph Smith's brain can't be a repository for that, and so the information must be soldered in from elsewhere.

OK.

Gadianton wrote:You're suggesting that a "translation committee" takes over when Joseph Smith's memory likely can't account for the data. How does that make any sense?

Because Joseph doesn't have the mental data, it has to be plugged in.

Gadianton wrote:Why do you need a translation committee to show Joseph Smith the text of the King Jame's Bible?

You wouldn't if Joseph had the text sitting right by him. The evidence seems to show that he didn't.

Gadianton wrote:That wouldn't even be "translating".

It would be part of the process I've been describing in this thread.

Gadianton wrote:That would be whispering source material into Joseph Smith's ear.

No. The words from the KJ would appear in Joseph's mind. He would then see them in his mind's eye with the stone as the back drop/viewer.

Gadianton wrote:Joseph Smith is "reading (nudge nudge) words off a stone" at a rapid pace.

Not so rapid that the transliteration process I've described couldn't be at play.

Gadianton wrote:Perhaps God...

God is supervising the project. That doesn't necessarily mean that He's right there involved in the minutia.

Gadianton wrote:...is showing him a mental film of sorts of plate content, and Joseph Smith's subconscious chops the images into mentalese, and then translates into Joseph Smith's vernacular...

I think that it is more or less natural process in which Joseph's brain is actually 'online' and interfacing directly with the process. It's not being done for him as much as it's being done with him as an active player.

Gadianton wrote:...and projects words onto a stone within Joseph Smith's minds eye...

The stone is simply a tool that is used as a point of synergy or focus. Later on we know that Joseph didn't need that point to focus on.

Gadianton wrote:...and Joseph Smith consciously sees the words on the stone and reads them off.

Yes.

Gadianton wrote:Now here come the Isaiah passages. The translation committee opens up a King James Bible -- but there's no time for that. Okay, the translation committee prepares selections of the king james Bible and has them ready to splice into the stream -- but in what format? A kind of virtual format where the words appear the same way as swords and horses appear as images to Joseph, except in this case the images are just concatenations of English letters and so Joseph Smith gets them down exactly.

There is time for that. We don't know what the preparatory work was before introduction of a given day's material for translation. If the committee knew what the conceptual map was for the day they would already have the verbatim scripture at hand.

Gadianton wrote:Fine, but why did a committee need to be involved?

They were the one's that were directing the production. Joseph wasn't doing it by himself.

Gadianton wrote:If the committee is involved in that production, why wouldn't they be the ones preparing the stream of other mental images to show Joseph Smith, such as horses and swords?

That's a good question. I suppose we could say that if Joseph saw visual representations of certain things he was left to decipher what those things were. Although that breaks down when you have certain things...such as a curelom...given 'as is'. This question would require a bit more thought.

Gadianton wrote:But if they didn't perform those tasks, then God would certainly have the KJV already virtualized and just splice in the stream of words when he gets to that spot.

Or the committee performed that task.

Gadianton wrote:There is nothing whatsoever in the idea of a "committee" that helps get past the KJV replications.

Some of the replications, as I've said, would come directly from Joseph's recollection of those passages of scripture in the New Testament meshed in with the actual sermons/teachings given by Book of Mormon prophets. One would think that there would be some cross pollination from one prophet...in the Old World...to those in the New World. The scripts would be similar but the location and actual language would differ. In Joseph's mind it would be easier to use language he was already familiar. His language...recollection/memory...then became the source material for that part of the narrative/translation.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:
Well, you're right...I am speculating. That's all one can do when all the evidence is not in. As I said in my previous post, it's the theology, stupid (just patterning this statement after: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_th ... my,_stupid)...which we've all seemed to forget. Double entendre, to both the political and Mormon context.

I'm not criticizing you for speculating. I'm criticizing you for speculating based on 0 evidence and worse for a lot of evidence that does not support your speculations.

Sure, there are common formulas that can help one believe almost anything. That's not in question. What is in question is whether or not the theology of the LDS Church is worth a spit. The theology is not worth throwing out the window because there are some unknowns in the implementation of the restoration of the gospel.

Value is separate from whether or not Joseph made it up. There are many theologies you think are made it that have a lot of value for others.

As Hardy has said, paraphrasing, it's the theology and message of the CofJCofLDS that is what one should be looking at primarily, not simply the mechanics of translation of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham.

That's what all the frauds will tell you to do.

Okay MG, when I say "translation committee" I'm thinking about the Skousen/Peterson "Ghost Committee" where spirit beings have some kind of access to the Gold plates, and they're converting Reformed Egyptian into 15th century English. By "translation committee" you seem to mean somebody that's part of a general committee that can grab the nearest KJV to load up for the next day's session, without knowing anything about translating. In fact, in your committee, the only known purpose so far is to fetch blocks of text.

But, a new vexing problem has cropped up. God is just supervising. The translation committee just fetches blocks of text since Joseph Smith can't grab a Bible and use it with his face in the hat. The stone is like a movie screen. And Joseph has his mind ready with the language of the day and his own prophetic insights ready to color the stream.

Are you ready for this one?

Who or what is actually pulling the symbols from the Gold Plates and turning them into something that can be infused into Joseph Smith's brain?

Kishkumen wrote:

Maksutov wrote:Weren't there times he 'translated' without the plates, the stone or the hat?

What about all the text he generated from completely irrelevant items like the Breathing Permit of Hor or the Kinderhook Plates, or even from thin air as with his revelations? What you have is a classic channeler pretending to be anything but.

He started out using a rod. He then took up the stone. Maybe those were his tools. I don’t know why this makes it seem any more or less fake to you.

There is a clear progression in Smith's career from small cons to big ones, depending on his props. He was accused of juggling and associating with Luman Walter and instances of his deceptions have been recorded.

Have you ever watched a magic act? Was it fake? Do you know what the intent of the magician was? If you can't explain the trick, does that make it magic? Does it make it "of God"? But this is exactly what Smith was playing with. He even used a hat, for Christ's sakes.

"Fake" is a matter of intent. We don't know what someone intends when they create something that is pretending to be something else. But we do know that the Book of Mormon is of human origin and its promoter pretended otherwise in many ways and with apparent deliberate subterfuge and deception.

Was he pious and sincere at times? Maybe. How would we really know? Can we believe what he wrote in his journal about his feelings? Can we allow that people are complex mixtures of seemingly contrary impulses and often not honest with themselves or others? We need look no further among the saints than Paul Dunn and Douglas Stringfellow. Lying for the Lord is an institution in Utah and elsewhere.

If someone produces a forgery, I think it reasonable to describe it as a "fake". And why should pseudepigraphs be accorded special status from other types of forgeries? And, yes, this calls into question the entire concept of "scripture"--and that's all good.

Gadianton wrote:Okay MG, when I say "translation committee" I'm thinking about the Skousen/Peterson "Ghost Committee" where spirit beings have some kind of access to the Gold plates, and they're converting Reformed Egyptian into 15th century English.

Or it had already been done.

Gadianton wrote:By "translation committee" you seem to mean somebody that's part of a general committee that can grab the nearest KJV to load up for the next day's session, without knowing anything about translating.

Again, it may be the case that much of the translation/transliteration had already been done before the actual period of 'on task' time where Joseph is directly involved. He is then the last piece of the puzzle to receive and transcribe. His mind/brain being the final gate/filter/process to go through.

Gadianton wrote:In fact, in your committee, the only known purpose so far is to fetch blocks of text.

They would definitely be involved in the editing and retrieval of the narrative/text into a form that can then be used during the delivery/transmission to Joseph's mind.

Gadianton wrote:Who or what is actually pulling the symbols from the Gold Plates and turning them into something that can be infused into Joseph Smith's brain?

If Tyndale & Co. (you would have to have some experts that can work with 'scriptural text' (formatting, etc.), Reformed Egyptian and other languages) is involved in the process I would imagine they would have had the time and the expertise to have access to the information on the plates and create the script for the Book of Mormon narrative. They would have also have developed a conceptual map, flow chart of sorts, of how and when to deliver/integrate conceptual chunks during the translation process. Joseph and his scribe would work one day and on the next they were able to go right back to where they were before on the seer stone. Delivery stops, delivery begins. All well controlled and set up beforehand.

Regards,
MG