Book of Mormon Transliteration

[_Lemmie]

Weren't there times he 'translated' without the plates, the stone or the hat?

What about all the text he generated from completely irrelevant items like the Breathing Permit of Hor or the Kinderhook Plates, or even from thin air as with his revelations? What you have is a classic channeler pretending to be anything but.

That's what it sounds like to me.

The only thing that would fit what you're saying, and please be clear if this is what you mean, is that Joseph's brain came before the output on the stone in the causal chain.

In other words, channeling.

[_Kishkumen]

Weren't there times he 'translated' without the plates, the stone or the hat?

What about all the text he generated from completely irrelevant items like the Breathing Permit of Hor or the Kinderhook Plates, or even from thin air as with his revelations? What you have is a classic channeler pretending to be anything but.

He started out using a rod. He then took up the stone. Maybe those were his tools. I don’t know why this makes it seem any more or less fake to you.

[_jfro18]

Why is Deutero-Isaiah in the Book of Mormon when it was written after Lehi left?

I like Grant Hardy's book, "Understanding the Book of Mormon". In that book, in reference to the Deutero-Isaiah problem, he says:

[we should]...acknowledge that we probably know less about what constitutes an ‘inspired translation’ than we do about Ancient Israel. Once one accepts the possibility of divine intervention, the theology can accommodate the (always tentative) results of scholarship.”

The Deutero-Isaiah chapters in 1st and 2nd Nephi are an uncomfortable presence, but not an inexplicable one, for, as Hardy affirms, accepting a divine provenance for the Book of Mormon provides the theological basis to resolve difficult historical issues. And we do not have a very good sense of what it means for a prophet to translate sacred texts solely through inspiration–with no training in, or knowledge of, the original language.
https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/02/12/ ... n-bom2016/

This is taking the same tactic you're taking here - that if you just expand beyond what we were told the translation process was by those who were there, it could maybe work if you give some allowances.

The Deutero-Isaiah verses being in there are a smoking gun - you should listen to David Bokovoy's explanation from Mormon Stories about this because it's just just those few verses - the Deutero-Isaiah stuff is in other areas of Book of Mormon.

Again - was Joseph translating the Book of Mormon off a rock in a hat or was he just ad-libbing. One of those we have sources to confirm and the other we have nothing.

[_Themis]

plates --> spirit world committee --> seer stone processing --> Joseph's brain (subconscious?) --> English words on seer stone --> Joseph reads words

I would fire everyone involved. Why is it God could so much better but chooses to make it look EXACTLY like Joseph is making it all up. Oh wait, maybe because that is EXACTLY what Joseph was doing. I know this thread centers on Book of Mormon production, but there is so much more and it all fits being made up.

[_Lemmie]

Weren't there times he 'translated' without the plates, the stone or the hat?

What about all the text he generated from completely irrelevant items like the Breathing Permit of Hor or the Kinderhook Plates, or even from thin air as with his revelations? What you have is a classic channeler pretending to be anything but.

He started out using a rod. He then took up the stone. Maybe those were his tools. I don’t know why this makes it seem any more or less fake to you.

I'm pretty sure Maks thinks it's all equally fake, but if you would permit a question, what do you mean 'his tools'? Are there some items used that you see as less fake?

[_Kishkumen]

I'm pretty sure Maks thinks it's all equally fake, but if you would permit a question, what do you mean 'his tools'? Are there some items used that you see as less fake?

A pointy hat with a sparkly ball on top.

[Guest]

Weren't there times he 'translated' without the plates, the stone or the hat?

What about all the text he generated from completely irrelevant items like the Breathing Permit of Hor or the Kinderhook Plates, or even from thin air as with his revelations? What you have is a classic channeler pretending to be anything but.

He started out using a rod. He then took up the stone. Maybe those were his tools. I don’t know why this makes it seem any more or less fake to you.

I'm pretty sure Maks thinks it's all equally fake, but if you would permit a question, what do you mean 'his tools'? Are there some items used that you see as less fake?

A pointy hat with a sparkly ball on top.

Aw shucks. I was hoping for a cloak of ineffability, or at least a 'Best of Queen' cassette for my Bentley*....

Seriously, though, I obviously intruded on your conversation if you're going to give such a crap answer to a real question, re: what I assumed was a real comment, so I apologize. Either that or I will just chalk it up to your general irascibleness of late regarding all things Mormon.

*Good Omens is an upcoming television serial based on the 1990 novel Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. A co-production between Amazon Prime and BBC Two, the six-part series was directed by Douglas Mackinnon and written by Gaiman, who served as showrunner. The series stars an ensemble cast featuring David Tennant, Michael Sheen, Jon Hamm, Anna Maxwell Martin, Josie Lawrence, Adria Arjona, Michael McKean, Jack Whitehall, Miranda Richardson and Nick Offerman.

All six episodes of the serial are set to be released on May 31, 2019 on Amazon Prime, and later broadcast weekly on BBC Two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Omens_(TV_series)

[_Gadianton]

naybe MG is trying to say the stone was not used at all

I think that's exactly what he's trying to say, but not for the reasons you gave. He would think that the stones are advanced and work like VR goggles and produce crystal clear print. I think he might be saying that it's a technicality that the words appeared on the stone, as they are just gratuitous, but without understanding that he's saying it's a technicality.

He also doesn't seem to grasp that deference to things beyond our understanding (Hardy) isn't a compliment to the Book of Mormon's complexity. It's the opposite. It would be like saying, in a murder where you have a smoking gun and video footage and fingerprints and everything, it's possible that by some terribly elaborate and complicated means that the accused isn't guilty, and there are other explanations for the evidence involving aliens and conspiracies etc. So imagine such a murder, and an MG all excited and bubbly explaining how we all must be astounded by the complexity of the conspiracy it would take to pull something like that off.

I would fire everyone involved. Why is it God could so much better but chooses to make it look EXACTLY like Joseph is making it all up. Oh wait, maybe because that is EXACTLY what Joseph was doing. I know this thread centers on Book of Mormon production, but there is so much more and it all fits being made up.

By the time he has his elaborate neural network of Joseph Smith, and angels, and the i-rock, and everything else involved, a just a likely and much simpler explanation would be this:

God instilled a carefully crafted imagination within Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, was in fact, a conman making up the whole thing, however, unbeknownst to Joseph Smith, his imaginative production and KJV borrowings produced what would just happen to be equivalent to a translation of real Gold Plates.

The process MG is going to be left with is every bit as accidental as this explanation.

[_mentalgymnast]

Yes, many people who can point to where Joseph was making it up say it's natural that Joseph would be using the Bible in order to write what is effectively Biblical fan fiction.

Why is Deutero-Isaiah in the Book of Mormon when it was written after Lehi left?

Why is it riddled with New Testament phrases and themes that were of course written after Lehi left?

If you believe that Joseph Smith read the words off a stone that were translated from the gold plates, this is not possible.

If you believe that Joseph Smith was just processing this into a book of his own mind, the entire need for gold plates, rocks in a hat, etc falls away.

You can't make it all fit together so you constantly jump around from possibility to possibility.

And then when you back yourself into a corner too far, you say that it's more "complex" than people think.

But the truth is that it's really simple - you only need complexity if you're trying to create a process that is not supported by evidence, logic, and the words of the people involved.

Bumping this for MG who spun right on past these, of course.

The Deutero-Isaiah problem I picked out of the list and Grant Hardy's comments in relation thereto, pretty much cover the bases on most of the other concerns that were posted. It becomes a matter of whether or not God is behind it. If you take an a priori position in regards to God not being involved then you're going to be looking for chinks in man's armor. On the other hand, if you "accept the possibility of divine intervention"(Hardy) and realize that a prophet is "a prophet [translating] sacred texts solely through inspiration–with no training in, or knowledge of, the original language"(Hardy), then this opens up a wide variety of way to look at things. Not to say that these ways are necessarily right, but it's a bit easier to speculate.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

plates --> spirit world committee --> seer stone processing --> Joseph's brain (subconscious?) --> English words on seer stone --> Joseph reads words

Is this possible? Sure.

This is parallel to the basic 'flow chart' I had in my mind as I was thinking about this, yes.

Regards,
MG