Radio Free Mormon: President Nelson Jumps The Shark

[_Stem]

God "inspiring" the policy then walking it back to where the church leadership can hide behind the local leaders seems too much to take.

Sure. Perhaps my favorite part of RFM's podcast episode and which caught me just right, was the notion that the leaders are quick to put it on the members...when they are the ones at fault for all of this stuff. Absolutely ridiculous.

I don't mean to defend Neslon with my comments though either. I'm just saying in his mind, he's genuine, I think, and that makes the claim of lie a tough one. I do think it means there's some credibility issues...there's plenty to question about what he means when he says what he does. There's plenty of room to argue, at the very least, even if he feels genuine it's certainly doesn't mean he's full of integrity.

[_Dr Exiled]

God "inspiring" the policy then walking it back to where the church leadership can hide behind the local leaders seems too much to take.

Sure. Perhaps my favorite part of RFM's podcast episode and which caught me just right, was the notion that the leaders are quick to put it on the members...when they are the ones at fault for all of this stuff. Absolutely ridiculous.

I don't mean to defend Neslon with my comments though either. I'm just saying in his mind, he's genuine, I think, and that makes the claim of lie a tough one. I do think it means there's some credibility issues...there's plenty to question about what he means when he says what he does. There's plenty of room to argue, at the very least, even if he feels genuine it's certainly doesn't mean he's full of integrity.

The more I think about it, perhaps delusion is a better way to explain how Nelson and his fellow Q15 operate. They have probably tricked themselves over the years into believing that whatever they think in their heads is somehow God communicating to them. How else can they say what they do with a straight face? Although, Holland sure gets carried away with his stories and false statistics at times. I wonder if he believes that he is inspired during those times, e.g., inspired to exaggerate?

[_Shulem]

4 April 2019
First Presidency Shares Messages from General Conference Leadership Session
A Message from the First Presidency

we will help in preparing the world for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

He's not coming! He's not coming this year, next year, or any year hereafter! The so-called last days will never end.

Previously, our handbook characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy.

So, what you're saying is your previous handbook characterizes someone as an apostate but the moment the next handbook is released they are no longer apostate? Does this change take place at the stroke of midnight?

I get the impression that the church still regards gay marriage as apostate just like a murderer is still a murderer -- but the difference now is that they won't be prosecuted for their apostate sins.

It's extremely offensive for the Mormon church to call people immoral just because they are in a gay marriage. That's a generalization that is highly offensive and outright provocative. The church should be ashamed for attacking others in this manner. The church wants to throw fire on others it can expect to have fire thrown back on it.

The very positive policies announced this morning should help affected families.

So the 2019 policy is "very positive"? That means the 2015 policy was very negative and did not help effective families at all.

In addition, our members’ efforts to show more understanding, compassion and love should increase respect and understanding among all people of goodwill.

The 2019 policy may do this but just think what the 2015 policy did? It showed less understanding, less compassion, less love, less respect, and less goodwill.

We want to reduce the hate and contention so common today.

So you want to reduce hate and contention in 2019, today?

Why on earth did you increase hate and contention in 2015?

We are optimistic that a majority of people — whatever their beliefs and orientations — long for better understanding and less contentious communications.

I will agree that the majority of people in 2015 shared these ideals and values. The problem is that the Mormons did not and they proved that with the November 2015 policy. Such a horrible move on the part of the church generated hate and contention!

That is surely our desire, and we seek the help of our members and others to attain it.

So in 2019 you desire to help the members but in 2015 you didn't. You, Mr. Oaks, are a disgusting man. And furthermore, I know you haven't seen Jesus. Ha ha! You haven't seen Jesus!

[_Shulem]

juliann over on the MormoN dialogue & discussion board comments on RFM's podcast:

It was good until he started into his own exegesis, which is the very tired infallibility complaint. Especially when he goes to Bill Reel as the real prophet. The podcast is an hour longer than it needs to be. He repeats himself endlessly.

Here is his black and white thinking problem....the reason it was changed, I think, is because it was not a good policy. He even says that people were leaving, so...newsflash, a LOT of us would agree with his original analysis, but more stayed than left. Then it only comes down to all the layers of infallibility. It was handled very badly. Yup. Very. I chalk it up to a steep learning curve that no prophet has ever had to face. But they changed it. He may not have realized the consequences originally, but it would be stupid to argue they don't get it now, in addition to the consequences of changing it. But they changed it.

Didn't finish it, too much question begging.

[_Shulem]

With gratitude we acknowledge God’s continuing guidance and love for all His children and invite our members to renew their commitment to following the teachings of the Savior Jesus Christ to love God and to love one another.

Right, renew your commitment by forgetting all about the November 2015 Policy and embracing the April 2019 Policy which is more in line with being real Christians.

Let us now throw Monson under the bus.

The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches members to love and treat all people with kindness and civility—even when they disagree. While Church doctrine will not change, Church members and policies should be considerate of those struggling with the challenges of mortality

Right. In 2015 we show our hate by refusing to baptize you but in 2019 we show our love by allowing you to be baptized because public pressure demands that we change our bad policy into a good policy.

We also know that those who enter into gay marriages are not really happy. They are struggling. They struggle to be happy while living a life of sin and are struggling with the nature of their sexuality. We know that the Book of Mormon teaches that "wickedness never was happiness" and those in gay marriages are living wicked lives, therefore they cannot be happy because it's contrary to what the Lord has revealed.

[_Shulem]

Elder Christofferson
provides context on
handbook changes affecting
same-sex marriages
November 2015

This is about family; this is about love and especially the love of the Savior and how He wants people to be helped and fed and lifted, and that’s the whole motivation that underlies our effort.

Mr. Christofferson:

Imagine if the policy was reversed tomorrow or, in a few years.

Would it be because of family?
Would it be because of love?
Would it be the right way to treat people?

What would Jesus do?

Please, stop this policy from going forward. It's the wrong thing to do. It's not inspired. It's just wrong. It will not be embraced by the membership or the public at large. It's not Christian.

Shulem
Mormon Discussions

[_Shulem]

Elder Christofferson
responds to Shulem
about the 2015 policy
at Mormon Discussions

It’s a matter of being clear; it’s a matter of understanding right and wrong; it’s a matter of a firm policy that doesn’t allow for question or doubt.

But the policy is just wrong. It's not loving at all. How can you be right when you refuse to love? I urge you to question and doubt this policy because it's not from the God of love and neither is it Christian. I predict it will be reversed once your church realizes it was a mistake. What will it take, a revelation?

We think it’s possible and mandatory, incumbent upon us as disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, to yield no ground in the matter of love and sympathy and help and brotherhood and serving in doing all we can for anybody; at the same time maintaining the standards He maintained.

The standards set forth in this policy are not grounded or centered in love at all. There is nothing sympathetic about it neither does it serve anyone in the least bit. The Christian world including the pope are not going to agree or accept this action as being an act of God. It's horrible. It clearly demonstrates Mormon intolerance against those who love according to their own conscience.

Repent and reverse this policy now!

That was the Savior’s pattern. He always was firm in what was right and wrong.

He was firm about loving anyone and everyone and to suffer the little children to come unto him. Jesus never said anything against gay marriage.

He never excused or winked at sin.

Excuse me? He never said a thing about gay marriage. This is entirely a construct made up by the Mormon church today.

He never redefined it.

Never say never! How do you know, were you there? Have you heard every sermon Jesus ever gave? All you have is a Bible and it says nothing about gay marriage. There is nothing to define or redefine.

He never changed His mind. It was what it was and is what it is and that’s where we are

Never changed his mind? Does that mean the church is never going to change its policy about not baptizing children of gay parents? That's a dreadful thought!

I seem to recall the Lord changing his mind. Polygamy one day and none the next. Didn't he command his saints to build a temple in Jackson County? Then he changed his mind because Smith couldn't pull the strings to get the job done.

You're pathetic, Christofferson and so is your church.

[_Craig Paxton]

Here's my take. I appreciate the podcast and hear your point of view. I don't know that Nelson is out and out lying. I think he sincerely believes his every impression is god-inspired. He seems to be using "revelation" in a way that says his impressions and feelings are nothing more than revelation. if he thinks a thing and feels good about it, it's revelation to him. And, in his vast human experience he knows there's tons of trial and error in that. I suppose that means either god isn't really behind some of his feelings, but "whatever, i'm still trying to do good and God is willing to work with me, he has to because he put me in this position", or it's too easy for people who rely on feelings treating them as god speaking to you, to confuse some things. That's why they pray so hard. They just keep bugging god about something. Of course if there is a god and he's hearing them he ain't answering. Could be because they already have their minds made up when they start praying, I guess.

I think he straight lied when he said the brethren considered all permutations, or whatever. That god-awful policy change came out as sloppy as my mom's gravy'd meat sandwiches. I mean he lied enough. To him it's likely any consideration they put into it was considering countless permutations. But I do think they are that blinded, boneheaded and over-confident. That is to say, they likely felt like they can handle deciding on how best to respond to the legalization of gay marriage. I mean idiots, of course.

but here we go back to somewhat woke members going to take comfort that the church can change and fix problems and in time the church comes around to something good or better. Eventually, one might say, the church is going to embrace the very "agenda" they fear.

I agree with Stem's take on Nelson's broad use of the term revelation. I too believe that Nelson view's his own mental impressions, dreams, random thoughts and even his heart burn from last nights taco dinner as revelation. I think Nelson has ceased on the faithful's hunger for communication from their god through his claimed servants and feeds them his mental dithering's as that revelation to satisfy their hunger.

Combined with his desire to feed the faithful he has taken liberties with the truth. There is no reconciling what Prince shared with Nelson's comments on the formation of the November policy. Either nelson is exaggerating the truth by embellishing the facts or Christofferson misrepresented the facts to his brother. I think Prince got it right and Nelson is taking liberties with the truth.

Another amazing podcast episode Consig...stay safe...I have no doubt that the Thought Police in their White shirts are looking high and low for you...

[_consiglieri]

juliann over on the MormoN dialogue & discussion board comments on RFM's podcast:

It was good until he started into his own exegesis, which is the very tired infallibility complaint. Especially when he goes to Bill Reel as the real prophet. The podcast is an hour longer than it needs to be. He repeats himself endlessly.

Here is his black and white thinking problem....the reason it was changed, I think, is because it was not a good policy. He even says that people were leaving, so...newsflash, a LOT of us would agree with his original analysis, but more stayed than left. Then it only comes down to all the layers of infallibility. It was handled very badly. Yup. Very. I chalk it up to a steep learning curve that no prophet has ever had to face. But they changed it. He may not have realized the consequences originally, but it would be stupid to argue they don't get it now, in addition to the consequences of changing it. But they changed it.

Didn't finish it, too much question begging.

Thanks for letting me know Julliangry's take on the podcast.

I have a feeling the reason she didn't finish the podcast has to do with something other than question begging . . .

But hey! At least she thought the first part was good!

[_consiglieri]

Just got done reading Juliann's comments with Stem and Analytics.

No matter how diplomatic you are with her, she will never confront the issue that what we are talking about here is not "infallibility," we are not talking about "making a mistake," we are talking about the current president of the church fabricating a complete story about the receipt of a revelation.

That is something else entirely to my mind.