Elias-Elijah in the temple -- did Joseph screw up or not?

[_jfro18]

This is one of those issues that gets mentioned from time to time but not in the way most of the bigger problems do (polygamy, DNA, Book of Abraham, rock in hat, etc).

So when Joseph claimed to see both Elias and Elijah in the temple, did he screw up or did he get it right?

Apologists point to the JST calling Elias John the Baptist which would predate this 'vision' as proof that Joseph knew what he was doing.

That said, Joseph made sure to point out that Elias was John in the JST yet in the temple made no so distinction *and* even lds.org concedes that the Elias in the temple was likely from Abraham's time.

Third, a prophet by the name of Elias, along with Moses and Elijah, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple on 3 April 1836. We know very little about this prophet except that he apparently lived in the days of Abraham and committed the “dispensation of the gospel of Abraham” to the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery (D&C 110:12). The power and commission Elias restored was that of celestial marriage and pertains to the doctrine of eternal increase (see Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith [1985], 508; and The Mortal Messiah [1979], 1:56–57).

I know it's an old issue that's been talked to death... just curious if anyone's come around to either side over time or not on this.

Personally I think this falls into the same category as the Deutero-Isaiah stuff -- either Joseph was so good at this that he got every nuance right (which is not backed up by the evidence we have) or he sometimes made major errors by not understanding that certain things did not fit together the way he thought they did.

[_Mormon Think]

yes, he screwed it up.

Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple (D&C 110:12, 13):

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi--...[emphasis added]

However, Elias and Elijah are the same person. Elijah is the Hebrew name of Elias (Greek). But Joseph thought they were two different people and thus referred to them as such.
http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/kir ... cation.htm

[_jfro18]

yes, he screwed it up.

Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple (D&C 110:12, 13):

However, Elias and Elijah are the same person. Elijah is the Hebrew name of Elias (Greek). But Joseph thought they were two different people and thus referred to them as such.
http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/kir ... cation.htm

The MormonThink page is I think one of the first ones I came across once I heard about that issue.

I guess the pushback is that Joseph Smith equates Elias in the JST to John, but again that doesn't match here as the implication is that Elias is from Abraham's time.

I think Joseph screwed up, but the apologetic arguments with the "forerunner" stuff are plausible if you want to give Joseph the benefit of the doubt, but still within the larger pattern of Joseph's works are not convincing.

[_reflexzero]

I guess the pushback is that Joseph Smith equates Elias in the JST to John, but again that doesn't match here as the implication is that Elias is from Abraham's time.

I think Joseph screwed up, but the apologetic arguments with the "forerunner" stuff are plausible if you want to give Joseph the benefit of the doubt, but still within the larger pattern of Joseph's works are not convincing.

I think the JST has been pretty handily debunked as plagiarism from Adam Clarke’s Biblical Commentary.

Elias only shows up when Joseph Smith needs an extra dose of credibility.

[_Mormonicious]

yes, he screwed it up.

Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple (D&C 110:12, 13):

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi--...[emphasis added]

However, Elias and Elijah are the same person. Elijah is the Hebrew name of Elias (Greek). But Joseph thought they were two different people and thus referred to them as such.
http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/kir ... cation.htm

Silly, silly Mormon Hater. You Know Horny Holy Joe were right about this, cuz like Horny Holy Joe was using Elijah's CODE name Elias https://youtu.be/YIDZ8qlx1_g

All Hail Google GOD

[_moksha]

Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple

There is always the possibility that Elijah was involved in a weird transporter malfunction the resulted in an identical clone. To distinguish themselves one adopted the Greek equivalent name Elias so people could address them in a less confusing manner.

Don't mind putting on my apologetic hat when it helps.

[_Mormon Think]

Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple

There is always the possibility that Elijah was involved in a weird transporter malfunction the resulted in an identical clone. To distinguish themselves one adopted the Greek equivalent name Elias so people could address them in a less confusing manner.

Don't mind putting on my apologetic hat when it helps.

Which one is the evil one?

[_jfro18]

There is always the possibility that Elijah was involved in a weird transporter malfunction the resulted in an identical clone. To distinguish themselves one adopted the Greek equivalent name Elias so people could address them in a less confusing manner.

Don't mind putting on my apologetic hat when it helps.

Which one is the evil one?

Wouldn't one have a goatee in this situation?

If that storyline had existed in the 1830s you know Joseph would've incorporated it somewhere.

[_fetchface]

How does calling John the Baptist Elias help? It seems like the apologetic argument is that Joseph isn't wrong that way, he is wrong a different way?

In the end, Joseph is still saying weird crap that doesn't make any sense either way you slice it.

[_jfro18]

How does calling John the Baptist Elias help? It seems like the apologetic argument is that Joseph isn't wrong that way, he is wrong a different way?

In the end, Joseph is still saying weird ____ that doesn't make any sense either way you slice it.

In the context of the vision it wouldn't help since John was not from Abraham's time.

And the thing for me is that Joseph retrofitted the priesthood revelation in 1835 to claim seeing John there, so in 1836 with this vision he would know that was John and would have no reason to use the name Elias instead.

It would be like if I met say Abraham Lincoln and then a year later I met "President." Would I say I was visited by "President" or would I be like "and then Abraham f'n Lincoln dropped by to hand me some anachronistic sealing keys."

The church wants it to be a heads I win, tails you lose approach, but it doesn't really work either way unless I'm missing something.