Scott Gordon the CES Letter and Truth

[_aussieguy55]

Rob Terry on a Facebook post made these interesting comments about the CES Letter discussed at the Fair Conference by Scott Gordon. It is really hard when one is involved in a church which takes your money and involves a lot of your time. If you are someone who starts to read and think and check sources and arguments it can make you very uncomfortable.

My early life was as a Lutheran Christian in a quite conservative synod. I converted to Mormonism over the issue of the Trinity. Years later research on the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon throttled my belief system. I associated with the Pentecostals for a while because my wife found a home there.Later I went back to the Lutheran church which had changed from what it use to be.Now I have problems with the Bible over archaeology of the exodus and conquest. Are scholars like Finkelstein and Dever wrong in their claims that the exodus and conquest did not happen?

Rob Terry's comment:

"Scott Gordon presented on the CES Letter at the FairMormon conference last week.

"He got emotional and choked up while talking about the effectiveness of this document as an “anti-Mormon” proselyting tool and the gravity of the CES Letter’s impact on the LDS world. Many families have been broken up and many people have had their lives disrupted. I share that emotion. I love this church, and I don’t like to see the number of people leaving it.

Scott spends part of the presentation describing generally the CES Letter and then spends a large amount of time going point by point for the first chapter of the CES Letter, showing that it is poor researched, sloppy, full of lies and half truths.

By doing so, I think Scott completely misses why the CES Letter is so compelling and so effective in deconstructing a traditional LDS belief set.

Yes, the CES Letter is a little sloppy. Yes, it includes a few inaccuracies and many “half-truths”. Yes, it includes all the bad and none of the good regarding evidences that support LDS truth claims. All of that is true. But it’s at least 70% accurate. And that 70% is a whopper for most LDS.

Next to me, of course (https://www.churchistrue.com/blog/ces-letter/), Patrick Mason has given the best insight into how to process the CES Letter while retaining an LDS testimony.

He said the CES Letter does a very good job attacking what he calls an unsustainable view of Mormonism. He then talks about how we have overfilled our “truth cart” and need to empty some of it. He believes there is a sustainable version of Mormonism that will come out on top. The CES Letter is effective in terms of identifying what needs to be tossed and what can stay.

I don’t think Scott Gordon’s defense of the CES Letter is effective, because I didn’t hear him acknowledge that point or encourage those struggling with doubt to shift their paradigm or adopt a more humble view of our doctrine and truth claims. His approach seems to be to just simply write it all off and defend the traditional narrative, with the overflowing truth cart, stuffing it back in as it keeps falling out.

Book of Abraham problems. Polygamy problems. Priesthood ban. Book of Mormon translation issues. Conflict in First Vision accounts. Details lacking in the priesthood restoration narrative. Old Testament Documentary Hypothesis. New Testament textual criticism. Evolution of doctrine in the restoration (and anciently).

None of these are simple problems. Every single one is a land mine ready to explode a traditional/literal/fundamentalistic testimony. The CES Letter is extremely effective at pointing this out. The process goes like this:

1. Many LDS have a simple, white-washed, historically indefensible view on the issue. Usually the view includes a perspective that God is involved in a way that’s 100% certain, in a fundamentalistic, inerrant manner.
2. The CES Letter blows away this view. (and in my opinion, rightly so)
3. The faith struggler then has three options.
a. Combat the new information to settle back into the initial perspective, or a slightly nuanced version that’s essentially the same. But basically retaining the notion that God is involved in a way that’s nearly 100% certain and inerrant.
b. Accept the new information and come to believe the Church is not “true” and either leave or try to stay in a state that’s very uncomfortable.
c. Accept the new information and reprocess the view of the Church into a version that’s less certain and more humanistic and built on true faith. This new view may not retain beliefs such that LDS is the one and only exclusively true church. But it does retain beliefs that God is in this Church in some way, and that it’s worthy of us devoting ourselves to.

I have a hunch that Scott Gordon and most of FairMormon would agree with me on this. But it’s very scary to say directly, considering that this more humanistic more epistemologically humble perspective is not the one taught over the pulpit at General Conference or on Sundays in our wards. It’s much easier to snipe around the borders of the CES Letter without really taking it on."

[_Shulem]

Let's also remind ourselves that the very days of President NelSatan are numbered seeing he doesn't have many left. Whether it be his health taking a massive downturn today or tomorrow -- he's going to kick the bucket before long. He's on his way out.

Next up? More changes and more power struggles will take place as the leadership counsels with themselves on what direction to take and how to handle the issues. It's going to get much worse for the church. Their problems will continue to multiply and grow as it wears them out trying to figure out how to sail through choppy waters.

The good ship Mormonism is sinking. I think it's obvious to everyone, including Scott Gordon.

[_Equality]

Rob Terry on a Facebook post made these interesting comments about the CES Letter discussed at the Fair Conference by Scott Gordon. It is really hard when one is involved in a church which takes your money and involves a lot of your time. If you are someone who starts to read and think and check sources and arguments it can make you very uncomfortable.

[SNIP!]

I have a hunch that Scott Gordon and most of FairMormon would agree with me on this. But it’s very scary to say directly, considering that this more humanistic more epistemologically humble perspective is not the one taught over the pulpit at General Conference or on Sundays in our wards. It’s much easier to snipe around the borders of the CES Letter without really taking it on."

This is a good analysis. The problem, I think, is that Number 1 was the creation of the LDS church leaders over a century and a half, and those same leaders now entrenched in power in the organization do not view number 3.c as an acceptable option for the members trying to come to grips with the fact that they have been misled their entire lives by the Brethren. Sure, some members can choose option 3.c, but in doing so they can either keep their thoughts and feelings to themselves or relegate themselves to second-class status in the community. So how viable is option 3.c for most long term?

[_jfro18]

Scott spends part of the presentation describing generally the CES Letter and then spends a large amount of time going point by point for the first chapter of the CES Letter, showing that it is poor researched, sloppy, full of lies and half truths.

By doing so, I think Scott completely misses why the CES Letter is so compelling and so effective in deconstructing a traditional LDS belief set.

I've seen a lot of people do this - the first chapter of the CES Letter is (in my opinion) the worst... it has the geography names which is a questionable part of the CES Letter and the comparisons to the Late War and View of the Hebrews is overweighted and not as strong.

And apologists are amazing are seizing on those few shaky arguments (esp since they come early) and trying to throw the entire thing out because of it. My own wife bought into that when she read the FAIR rebuttal... she said once she realized he didn't correct the geography she wouldn't finish it.

To be fair that's a defense mechanism because she is aware of the other issues and knows there are no good answers, but that's why apologists do it - it gives those believers an early exit ramp to avoid seeing the rest of the CES Letter which just opens up so many problems whether it's the Book of Abraham, DNA, polygamy, Brigham Young, etc.

You can't debunk the CES Letter - you can only try to strawman it by using a few shaky things to try and cast all of it as 'sloppy' or 'deceptive.' And in doing so they'll switch from loose to tight translation, claiming a source it too far past the event while they'll use other sources long after the event when it suits them.

It's a game of divide and conquer, but the moment you take a step back and look at it from an overhead view... it's a pattern that can not be dismissed. And at that point it's all over.

[_grindael]

I would put the CES Letter at the 90% mark for accuracy. Some mistakes, sure. But those have been fixed. As with all evidence, some gets interpreted differently by different people so there is not right or wrong or "truth", only approximation and sometimes best guesses.

Scott Gordon is a moron and FAIRMORMON is filled with disingenuous liars.

And what's really, really mind blowing? The CES Letter only scratches the surface of what is wrong with the "faithful" narrative the church is pedaling and the historical cover-ups and lies.

There is so much more. The day will come when we will see it. Only a matter of time.

[_Shulem]

I would put the CES Letter at the 90% mark for accuracy. Some mistakes, sure. But those have been fixed. As with all evidence, some gets interpreted differently by different people so there is not right or wrong or "truth", only approximation and sometimes best guesses.

Scott Gordon is a moron and FAIRMORMON is filled with disingenuous liars.

Amen and amen.

Open your mouth, Gordon, eat the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3! You're my whipping-boy.

I'm going to ram them down your damned throat and make you eat them!



Eat them, you bastard!

Eat!!

[_Dr Exiled]

And what's really, really mind blowing? The CES Letter only scratches the surface of what is wrong with the "faithful" narrative the church is pedaling and the historical cover-ups and lies.

There is so much more. The day will come when we will see it. Only a matter of time.

I've always viewed the CES letter as a great list of a lot of the problems with the church, together with insightful explanations of each listed questionable item. You've done a great job helping Jeremy in this endeavor, Grindael.

The a$$hole apologists complain that it isn't done by a PhD and so Jeremy isn't worthy to make any criticisms of Even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. However, that is merely a play that the Mormon Dodgers of the Utah rookie league would do. MLB apologists would engage the issues (if they could). They have PhD's and cannot answer directly the questions Jeremy posits. It's Jenkins/Hamblin revisited and the mopes fail in an epic way yet again. So, they have to resort to their tried and true dodge by making an ad hominem attack on Jeremy and his lack of credentials (even though those credentialed mop the floor with the mopes). The mope attacks clearly fail and many see this and leave.

[_Madison54]

I would put the CES Letter at the 90% mark for accuracy. Some mistakes, sure. But those have been fixed. As with all evidence, some gets interpreted differently by different people so there is not right or wrong or "truth", only approximation and sometimes best guesses.

Scott Gordon is a moron and FAIRMORMON is filled with disingenuous liars.

I agree with you assessment.

There's now a discussion starting over on MD&D about Gordon's presentation (and accusing Jeremy of posting about it there):

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/674 ... 1209921933

Hey, Jeremy, before you go trolling old posts about yourself (because no one cares about you anymore), remember that you have been fully exposed and excoriated for the dishonest way the CES Letter frames alleged issues. If you haven't seen it, go watch the recent FairMormon Conference in 2019 in which Scott Gordon completely exposes you (reminds us) for the fraud that you are.

[_Shulem]

There's now a discussion starting over on MD&D about Gordon's presentation (and accusing Jeremy of posting about it there):

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/674 ... 1209921933

smac97 said:

By way of evidence, I point to the Church's Gospel Topics essays, which are routinely ignored by our critics, and which address many "anti-Mormon talking points" that continue to be "recycled."

No, these things have not been ignored. Mormon Think has addressed all the Essays and I've addressed the Book of Abraham Essay here on this board:

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham

LDS.ORG Essay fails to defend Facsimile No. 3

[_Lemmie]

pac man, from md&d:

There's a special place in hell reserved for Jeremy Runnels.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/674 ... 1209921977

Wow.