DiscussMormonism.com

Stem wrote:
Sure, and I don't care.

That's of no real consequence, to be rather blunt. What matters is if whether or not God cares. If He does, that makes ALL the difference. I don't think we are fully able to give credit to where credit is due. God can make things happen...in the macro/eternal state of things, even when sh** happens...in the micro state of things here on earth. Like the song says, "He's got the whole wide world in His hands."

I guess that's where faith comes into play.

We do live in a fallen world where psychopaths are among us along with maladies of every kind. If that isn't opposition in all things, what is? To think that God doesn't have a workaround for this...including the eternal state of the psychopath...isn't giving God his due as the creator of the universe and all that is in it.

Sadly, there are those that throw the label of psychopath on God because He doesn't fit the bill according to their limited understanding of the world and its purpose. That's the beauty of the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ...this purpose is laid out fairly, if not completely, for all to see...if they have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Regards,
MG

Stem wrote:...[people have] certain maladies because God gave them to them or they are eternally stuck with them because it is who they are, no?

I don't think so. The teachings in the New Testament seem to point us away from this heinous doctrine/teaching.

I do believe that the Apostle Paul was right on when he said:

[God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation.

and

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

and

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:...if they have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Regards,
MG

Everyone does or should, well aside from the "maladies" of blindness and deafness. The problem often is when people see or hear they are from the outside looking in at weirdo folks telling everyone they are favored in the eternities, due to arbitrariness.

"well it's not arbitrary. God knows what he's doing. He works it all out in the end, so there is something more going on then arbitrary."

Uh ok. There's really nothing in that but emptiness and claim.

"well God loves everyone, and he's no psychopath and the people that are psychopaths are here because GOd needs opposition in all things."

Alright I"m glad you can repeat that which you've been told, at least.

mentalgymnast wrote:

Stem wrote:...[people have] certain maladies because God gave them to them or they are eternally stuck with them because it is who they are, no?

I don't think so. The teachings in the New Testament seem to point us away from this heinous doctrine/teaching.

I do believe that the Apostle Paul was right on when he said:

[God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation.

and

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

and

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Regards,
MG

So outside of 1. God gave them these trials to help bless them or because of their individual needs or 2. it is simply part of who they are eternally. what other possibility are you saying there is?

Stem wrote:...if God made someone a psychopath, for their own benefit, what benefit would that be? If that person is just eternally a psychopath...

Stem, we live in a world that is controlled by genetics and mutation, environment, culture, and what have you. You're talking as though God is micro managing everything. There is a difference between macro and micro. You get that, I'm sure. God, in my opinion, is looking at...and planning for...the BIG picture. Don't you think that He is well aware of all the psychos running around messing things up?

And that He's got a plan that includes the messiness and the fact that everything isn't perfect in this world? You do remember learning that we are living in a Telestial world, right? Would that not include psychopaths and all of the other maladies we see all around us?

I think God has a way to save the psychopath (and those that are subject to the maladies listed in my bullet points) in the eternal scheme of things. Just like He has a way to save you or me. The toss of the dice, however, gives you and me a greater degree of freedom to choose.

Why not take advantage of that? Afterall, where more is given more IS expected. Are we/you living up to that?

Why toss the dice and/or the way the cards were dealt away simply because YOU don't believe it to be fair? Give God some credit.

Regards,
MG

Ah, MG’s all powerful/all powerless God that is helpless to prevent human suffering MUST have a workaround for mental illness because MG cannot imagine it any other way.

Stem wrote:
"well God loves everyone, and he's no psychopath and the people that are psychopaths are here because GOd needs opposition in all things."

I don't think I said it quite this way. There is opposition in all things. But I don't think God needs it.

We do.

So He did engage with a plan that would provide a way for that opposition...which we need...to be part and parcel of the way the world works. And there ain't any way you can get around the fact that the world does work that way.

And that opposition can provide a path for growth. The downside is that opposition wreaks a lot of havoc and misery. Micro and macro.

But I believe that God, He being who He is, has a plan/workaround to surmount this. We refer to it as the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Without the doctrine/teachings associated with the Atonement I think that I would be pretty much on the same page as you and others that are unwilling to give God the benefit of a doubt that He can carry out a plan of eternal happiness and joy for all of His children.

What brings that happiness and joy will vary from person to person...just as it does here. Why some are placed and/or fall into one position vs. another while here on earth is in the hands of God. I do believe, however, that if we find out that the cards are stacked one way or the other such as to provide us with a greater ability to serve and bring others to Christ and His goodness, we ought to hop on board the train and ride it.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:
Stem, we live in a world that is controlled by genetics and mutation, environment, culture, and what have you. You're talking as though God is micro managing everything.

yes for the sake of laying out my criticism I'm assuming Mormonism. "need to find your keys anyone? well pray to me and I'll uncover their sneaky whereabouts."

There is a difference between macro and micro. You get that, I'm sure. God, in my opinion, is looking at...and planning for...the BIG picture. Don't you think that He is well aware of all the psychos running around messing things up?

He surely must be. He knew about the deceit of Judas after all. He knew that the deceit had to happen and that after the plot was uncovered he'd go and kill himself (which brings us back to the old Mormon view of suicide ending one's possibility for celestial life).

And that He's got a plan that includes the messiness and the fact that everything isn't perfect in this world? You do remember learning that we are living in a Telestial world, right? Would that not include psychopaths and all of the other maladies we see all around us?

Yes God's plan appears to be--there is a mess of tons of people. I have to get 2/3rds of them to the earth, and most of those will get some form of benefit, even if most of those benefiters will also get some sort of hell too. Some of these 2/3rds I know are valiant so I have to give them benefit over all the others and some of those most valiant will end up with me....right where they want to be. the others don't really want to be with me because well I see they aren't very valiant already. So I'll situate them so they won't end up with me, but will end up with some form of benefit on top of some level of hell.

I think God has a way to save the psychopath (and those that are subject to the maladies listed in my bullet points) in the eternal scheme of things. Just like He has a way to save you or me. The toss of the dice, however, gives you and me a greater degree of freedom to choose.

Yes. The arbitrariness gives some benefit over another. But your thinking that God saves the psychopath seems odd. Who does God reserve for OUTER DARKNESS? Is it not possible or even likely that some psychopaths are heading to the real live hell and thus won't be saved? They might be among those for whom it was better they were never born. I mean possible, right? But, it appears you think God will just save those who have certain maladies. I think that's a church teaching too--like the mentally ill, or those who die before the age of accountability. Yiptey….he saves them all if we're talking about those who inherit a kingdom of heaven.

Why not take advantage of that? Afterall, where more is given more IS expected. Are we/you living up to that?

Me? Well because it sounds like misery and a case of supporting eternal misery. As it is if I were exalted in Mormonism I don't know that I'd be any less miserable than the devil. The pains of watching everyone else suffer seems like misery to me.

Why toss the dice and/or the way the cards were dealt away simply because YOU don't believe it to be fair? Give God some credit.

Regards,
MG

That's the problem, of course. Give him credit for what? For delivering misery? How do we know we are better off coming to earth? We already know for some of us it was better we never came at all.

Res Ipsa wrote:Ah, MG’s all powerful/all powerless God that is helpless to prevent human suffering MUST have a workaround for mental illness because MG cannot imagine it any other way.

Mental illness exists in the world. If God exists, He has a workaround. It is literally THAT simple.

Now, if God doesn't exist...where's the party tonight?

Regards,
MG

I like to view the Mormon God as a mob boss. Pay up da 10% or you'll be sleepin with da fishes in the TK.