The hell of Mormon afterlife

[_mentalgymnast]

So... it's not the "well of spirits" that would run dry it would be INTELLIGENCES. Once again, MG shows how really, really ignorant he is in regard to simple Mormon doctrine.

No intelligences, no Spirits. Same argument holds.

I'm aware of the doctrine.

Regards,
MG

[_Lemmie]

As I laid out earlier in the thread, the fruits of the CofJCofLDS are a whole lot different than the fruits resulting from the ruthless dictatorial leadership of a cartel boss.

Regards,
MG

No, you didn’t. In fact, suggesting it is a matter of “the fruits” being different further misses honor’s point:

But your analogy depends on how we describe God's control vs. a Godfather's control. Force vs. love and agency to choose (God has little choice over the decisions people make in regards to obedience to His commandments). Are YOU forced to do anything? What profit does God receive? To see the growth, progress and happiness of His children. Sort of in direct opposition to the profit a mafia Don expects to receive. Every benefit is directed outward to His children not to Himself. His glory is the happiness of others.

Using a cartel boss as a direct analogy looks good on the surface but falls apart on further analysis. I could go on, but that should suffice.

It doesn't depend on how we describe God's control. It depends on if the source of morality is the will of an authority figure. If it is, then the story of Abraham is the story of a cartel boss ordering a henchman to kill his son with a gun loaded with blanks.

If morality is separate from the authority figure's will, then our moral compass should point out to us that commanding someone to kill their son to prove their loyalty is wrong.

You keep choosing the first option, and then trying to defend the actions of the authority figure whose will is inconsistent. The authority figure can authorize murder in which case murder is not wrong. The authority figure can authorize rape in which case rape is not wrong. The authority figure can authorize deceit and theft in which case both are not wrong. Yet you'd be the first in line to claim there is such a thing as objective morality because it is defined by what God wills.

You can't be a moral agent in this system. You only get to choose to obey or disobey the authority figure. You say he operates with perfect love so we should trust him. Yet you can't offer a simple defense of his having told Abraham to kill his son to prove his loyalty that demonstrates there was a moral purpose behind this other than to reinforce the need for God to be obeyed.

So, yeah. Your version of morality is choosing to obey and defend a cartel boss.

[_fetchface]

Big surprise, MG applies his favorite logical fallacy again, special pleading. If murdering babies in an act of ethnic cleansing doesn't qualify as "bad fruits," nothing does. God is a monster if you take the Bible at its word.

Alright, MG, special plead away...

[_I have a question]

Big surprise, MG applies his favorite logical fallacy again, special pleading. If murdering babies in an act of ethnic cleansing doesn't qualify as "bad fruits," nothing does. God is a monster if you take the Bible at its word.

all right, MG, special plead away...

Arguably, a mob boss is more honourable in that they actually do give you protection in return for extorted money.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Big surprise, MG applies his favorite logical fallacy again, special pleading. If murdering babies in an act of ethnic cleansing doesn't qualify as "bad fruits," nothing does. God is a monster if you take the Bible at its word.

all right, MG, special plead away...

Arguably, a mob boss is more honourable in that they actually do give you protection in return for extorted money.

So, tithing?

- Doc

[_fetchface]

Arguably, a mob boss is more honourable in that they actually do give you protection in return for extorted money.

The Canaanite babies didn't pay the protection money, so God sent his henchmen...

My main point is that if we attempt to know God by his fruits, there are some really stinky fruits. They aren't different than the types of fruits that a mob boss grows. You can't say, "by their fruits shall ye know them" and then ignore the bad fruit.

This was my biggest complaint about "The God Who Weeps." The Givens' spend a lot of time in the beginning talking about how we have the right to judge our God's morality. They give examples of immoral behavior from Aztec Gods. Then they proceed to ignore the God of Abraham's misbehaviors and simply state that he is good.

[_fetchface]

Just to rant a bit, I just can't believe how stupid the need to believe that the God of Abraham is good makes people. You have to turn your brain completely off to do it.

God ordered the genocide of a people. This included specific instructions not to spare the children. Stop and imagine what it would be like to be one of the Israelites whose job it is to murder a Canaanite infant that survived the initial battle. Really think about it.

I would say that it is completely impossible for Satan to be more evil than God was in ordering that act.

And believers have the audacity to say with a straight face that God's fruits are wonderful. Shame on them.

[_fetchface]

Thomas Paine said it better than I could:

There are matters in that book, said to be done by the express command of God, that are as shocking to humanity, and to every idea we have of moral justice, as any thing done by Robespierre, by Carrier, by Joseph le Bon, in France, by the English government in the East Indies, or by any other assassin in modern times. When we read in the books ascribed to Moses, Joshua, etc., that they (the Israelites) came by stealth upon whole nations of people, who, as the history itself shews, had given them no offence; that they put all those nations to the sword; that they spared neither age nor infancy; that they utterly destroyed men, women and children; that they left not a soul to breathe; expressions that are repeated over and over again in those books, and that too with exulting ferocity; are we sure these things are facts? are we sure that the Creator of man commissioned those things to be done? Are we sure that the books that tell us so were written by his authority?

...The Bible tells us, that those assassinations were done by the express command of God. And to read the Bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man. Speaking for myself, if I had no other evidence that the Bible is fabulous, than the sacrifice I must make to believe it to be true, that alone would be sufficient to determine my choice.

[_mentalgymnast]

God is a monster if you take the Bible at its word.

You don't strike me as a fundamentalist. But then again, as I've said many times on this board, there are those folks here that do seem to have a fundamentalistic bent to their worldview. That, in and of itself, can wreak havoc as one is going through a faith crisis/journey. Black and white worldviews don't mix very well with ambiguity and gray.

I'd suggest you might want to start reading here:

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/tools/b ... y-happened

On this thread there has been some real reaching...back in prehistory that is...to dig up absolute, yeah right, proof that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was simply a monster. 'Nuff said, argument over.

Cartel boss. Because, of course, that's the God of the Bible. Period.

I wonder why that is?

You surely wouldn't want a monotheistic creator God that comes and goes throughout Judeo-Christian history, claiming to be the Son of God, teaching a beautiful and saving gospel, and carrying out an Infinite Atonement reappearing again (in our secular age?...c'mon) and calling a modern day prophet, right?

Strict and dogmatic secular thought is much more comfy.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

And believers have the audacity to say with a straight face that God's fruits are wonderful.

I think that Pres. Nelson's recent trips to the saints throughout the world seems to point to the fact that the fruits of the gospel are active in people's hearts and minds throughout the world.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... ong-154576

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... tam-159100

Regards,
MG