DiscussMormonism.com

Stem wrote:God is said to mourn for those who decide not the believe.

Here's a bit of free advice for God: don't make the beliefs so ridiculous and maybe we who are doing our best to find truth will believe them.

Morley wrote:I believe that most in the Church think that morality is no more than obedience.

My moral reasoning process as a believer: If it wasn't clear what I was supposed to do/believe in a particular situation I looked for the church to take a position and I followed that position.

So yes, you are correct. As a believer, I let the church do my moral reasoning for me.

The truth is, the church doesn't want Christ-like members. Jesus was highly critical of religious authorities when warranted. They won't countenance the slightest criticism.

What I got out of your post Stem was that the membership has largely retreated into reciting boilerplate, even though the pretense is an open discussion. It's like a small town where everyone plays a role as from a script, because the town has a terrible dark secret that everyone knows about but never talks about.

mentalgymnast wrote:

Morley wrote:I believe that most in the Church think that morality is no more than obedience.

Of course you would. Otherwise you might have to admit that there are a whole lot of people that want to do what they do for the right reason. Because of their love for others. Because they desire to serve. Because they feel good when they are doing the moral/right thing. Because they honestly want to improve and become better humans and sons and daughters of God.

I don't have any trouble admitting or believing those things.

What does conceding any of that have to do with idea that most LDS Church members (and authorities) seem to believe that obedience and morality are roughly the same thing?

Morley wrote:What does conceding any of that have to do with idea that most LDS Church members (and authorities) seem to believe that obedience and morality are roughly the same thing?

Indeed, I did many good and kind things as a believer, and I loved doing them. However, I did unkind things because I was told to (canvassing the neighborhood to support Prop 8, donating to the Yes on 8 campaign, etc.). I did not feel good about doing these things, but I did them because I was told to do them by my leaders, and I thought it was morally right because I was being obedient to my church leaders and therefore to God.

mentalgymnast wrote:

Res Ipsa wrote:Ah, MG’s all powerful/all powerless God that is helpless to prevent human suffering MUST have a workaround for mental illness because MG cannot imagine it any other way.

Mental illness exists in the world. If God exists, He has a workaround. It is literally THAT simple.

Now, if God doesn't exist...where's the party tonight?

Regards,
MG

Why? He lacks the power to stop earthquakes and cystic fibrosis. Maybe he has no power to make a workaround for mental illness.

Morley wrote:
Where did Stem point you out, 'in particular,' for being elitist or holier-than-thou?

Stem:
I mean any way you slice it it sounds like hell. But for those who want to be above the others...well, I suppose it's made for you.

I suppose it's possible that I'm not included at this 'party', but I took it to be guilt by association. I suppose Stem might have been a bit more explicit and/or exact in his speech and say whether he believes that I consider myself to be one of those 'holier than thou' types. The reason I even bring it up, to your consternation, is that I don't want go to THAT party.

Since he and I were having the conversation together I was concerned he might be referring to me.

Regards,
MG

fetchface wrote:
The truth is, the church doesn't want Christ-like members.

That's just bullsh**.

Things...and perceptions...really change when you jump off the boat, don't they?

Regards,
MG

Morley wrote:

What does conceding any of that have to do with idea that most LDS Church members (and authorities) seem to believe that obedience and morality are roughly the same thing?

It looks like the obedience drum is being beat again, as though there is something inherently wrong with following the commandments?

That this is somehow immoral?

Regards,
MG

Stem
God is said to mourn for those who decide not the believe.

Literally silly considering the so-called history of God's interactions with mankind. If God wants this badly for people to believe, his method flat sucks and He knows it. But, wait a sec. He ALREADY knows how to solve the problem and crying about it isn't it. Just show up and tell us and be with us! Wow, how original. He did with Joseph Smith. He did with St. Paul, He did with Jesus actually living around for 33 years or so. Gosh, He can't figure out how to solve the disbelief problem? Bummer to be Him eh? If he mourns its HIS fault entirely, since assuming the scriptures are true, he KNOWS based on past experience how to have JOY with ALL mankind. SHOW UP and ENJOY company with us. I mean, D.U.H.