The hell of Mormon afterlife

[_Gadianton]

Before I answer, suppose the story went that God didn’t send the angel and Abraham went through with the killing. Then suppose God commanded Abraham to fillet Isaac like a fish.

In this version of the story, did God love Abraham perfectly? Did he love Isaac perfectly?

[_mentalgymnast]

...whatever God wants just has to be right, right?

I think that's a safe assumption.

I have a couple of questions for you.

1. Do two wrongs ever make a right?
2. Assuming that God is subject to the ramifications of people being free agents, does He look at number one, or that which we would normally consider to be a logical fallacy (leading to moral quandaries and ambiguities), as a tool/means to accomplish a greater good?

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

You didn't answer his question.

It would be helpful to have him answer my question first.

Would you care to take a stab at it also?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Before I answer, suppose the story went that God didn’t send the angel and Abraham went through with the killing. Then suppose God commanded Abraham to fillet Isaac like a fish.

In this version of the story, did God love Abraham perfectly? Did he love Isaac perfectly?

Let's go with the account we have in the Bible.

It shouldn't be too difficult to give a straightforward yes or no.

Regards,
MG

[_Gadianton]

What does the account in the Bible say? If we’re going by what the Bible says, then that’s your answer.

However, if the alternative story as I presented it were in the Bible, then the answers would be the same for that scenario also.

[_mentalgymnast]

What does the account in the Bible say? If we’re going by what the Bible says, then that’s your answer.

You're beating around the bush. You and I can both see that there is a Catch-22 at play.

I've always found it interesting that the believers are the ones that are subject answering ALL questions and answers while others have a free pass at sidestepping when they see that they're being pushed a direction that they would rather not go. Out of the comfort zone.

Over the long haul I have been MUCH more willing to engage in questions put to me than the questioners have been in responding to mine. Instead I see sidestepping and/or reframing. And then the moment is gone.

By the way, the other questions...and associated answers...that have been asked of me recently in this thread are somewhat contingent on receiving a straight answer to the questions I've asked.

Regards,
MG

[_honorentheos]

So Abraham nearly killing Isaac brought Abraham closer to a state of godliness?

Two questions:

Did God love Abraham perfectly?
Did God love Isaac perfectly?

Of course we already can surmise that Abraham loved his son.

Regards,
MG

No, no and actually no to the thing surmised as well. Perfect love avoids things like gutwrenching twists and absurd demands. And love doesn't get pushed into doing terrible things to someone because someone they fear demands it of them. Had Abraham told god to jump in the lake instead of going along with the demand he sacrifice Isaac I think we could then surmise Abraham loved Isaac. Given the evidence Abraham was the worst kind of father having sent one son off into the desert to fend for himself and protect his cast out mother, and then being willing to put a knife in the other son. Abraham in the Bible is a terrible person.

[_mentalgymnast]

Two questions:

Did God love Abraham perfectly?
Did God love Isaac perfectly?

No, no

That's an easy answer for an agnostic/atheist/pantheist...or whatever you describe yourself as nowadays.

The divide is wide and insurmountable at this juncture.

The God of Abraham is dead to you. And a non-existent diety can't love perfectly.

Abraham was simply a wingnut and so was God.

Case closed.

On the other hand, if this God of Abraham is the true and living God then things shift around radically. That is, unless this God doesn't love perfectly.

But hey, Abraham didn't exist to begin with, so what are we even doing having this conversation?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Abraham in the Bible is a terrible person.

I think it still comes back to whether or not one has a belief in a creator/God that loves perfectly.

Oh, and of course, whether that's the God we're referring to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc.

Abraham, unless he was simply hallucinating on mushrooms was purportedly acting in compliance to God's commands.

So who is this God?

Regards,
MG

[_Gadianton]

On the other hand, if this God of Abraham is the true and living God then things shift around radically. That is, unless this God doesn't love perfectly.

Which would hold true in the scenario I offered as well, where Abraham kills Isaac and fillets him like a fish at the behest of God. If he is the true and living God, then he loves perfectly, and if he loves perfectly and he allows Abraham to kill Isaac and then commands that he fillet him, then that must have be the right thing to do.