More Good Foundation

[_moksha]

Hard to not see Smokey as a disruptive force, but is the Smokey persona more likely to be sent by the More Good Foundation or the Gates of Hell? The later is not as well funded.

[_Kishkumen]

It may help us understand the general landscape of churches using employees and volunteers to fight critics online if we consider other examples:

https://tonyortega.org/2018/03/23/stop-interacting-with-scientologys-internet-trolls-heres-proof-it-can-backfire-on-you-badly/

Numerous times, we have warned people — practically begged them, actually — not to take the bait and interact with these two on Twitter, where they carry on intentionally misleading “debates” about Scientology, which is clearly their full-time jobs.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2828283/Scientologist-trolls-use-internet-attack-people-ruin-careers-says-Oscar-winning-director-ex-church-member-Paul-Haggis.html

I know what they do online,' he said. 'I've seen them attack others under false names, try to discredit them, ruin their careers.

And I've heard about these two people who work in the basement of Special Affairs there and they're just online all day at their computers, going on to various blogs, commenting on people's lives and things they do.'

http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com/2008/07/scientologys-internet-trolls.html

With Church of Scientology trolls, they have the added intentions to:
Divert attention from all the negative information about the Church of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard.
Pollute any discussion thread about Scientology's crimes with flame wars, insults and ugly accusations.
Forward all Church of Scientology attacks, lies and disinformation.
Bury negative information about the church under random, off-topic comments.
Fake outrageous, crazy and embarrassing comments, allegedly from Scientology critics but actually from the Scientology trolls.
They have orders and they have an agenda. The basic job of the Scientology trolls is to suppress the truth. They work all the time to suppress Freedom of Speech. (Just imagine the poor soul who accepts that as their job.)

Scientology's trolls appear to be similar to regular trolls or to very stupid people. It is sometimes difficult to differentiate between these different types of troublemakers.

The Scientology Troll has specific characteristics:
Always states "I am not a Scientologist".
Always parrots the Church of Scientology party line.
Always attacks anyone the church wants attacked.
Always "gets very upset" when outed as a Scientologist or an OSA troll.
They persist in forwarding the church's agenda even after all their false claims have been debunked and disproven. This is because they are not allowed to move from that position.
They claim to have read any referenced web sites containing the truth about the Church of Scientology, but they remain completely ignorant of such information.

[_Res Ipsa]

Kish, Scientology's "fair game" tactics are pretty well documented. But that doesn't seem to me to be much of a "landscape" that we can generalize from. Do we have any evidence that the MGF pays people to be LDS Trolls or assigns them volunteer positions as such?

[_Kishkumen]

Kish, Scientology's "fair game" tactics are pretty well documented. But that doesn't seem to me to be much of a "landscape" that we can generalize from. Do we have any evidence that the MGF pays people to be LDS Trolls or assigns them volunteer positions as such?

Res Ipsa, I did not intend for you to extrapolate from what one organization does to conclude that the MGF is doing that thing. Landscape is a deliberately broad term intended to capture what is generally possible in this kind of information warfare. We have to consider many different examples to get a sense of what might be done. Then we can consider the evidence in light of those possibilities.

I am not sure whether you were here for the career of Simon Belmont, who claimed to have worked for LDS Church Security and made it his business to derail threads as well as doxxx people right here on the board. You may also not be aware of the ongoing investigation into the identity of Doctor Scratch. Also, you may not know of the times my identity has been revealed on other boards or alluded to on Mormon-themed blogs.

The beauty of the MGF is that it sounds positive and benign, while creating an obvious set of resources in organization and money to engage in information warfare. We would be naïve not to suspect it, given the LDS Church’s history of spying on and attacking critics.

[_Res Ipsa]

Kish, Scientology's "fair game" tactics are pretty well documented. But that doesn't seem to me to be much of a "landscape" that we can generalize from. Do we have any evidence that the MGF pays people to be LDS Trolls or assigns them volunteer positions as such?

Res Ipsa, I did not intend for you to extrapolate from what one organization does to conclude that the MGF is doing that thing. Landscape is a deliberately broad term intended to capture what is generally possible in this kind of information warfare. We have to consider many different examples to get a sense of what might be done. Then we can consider the evidence in light of those possibilities.

I am not sure whether you were here for the career of Simon Belmont, who claimed to have worked for LDS Church Security and made it his business to derail threads as well as doxxx people right here on the board. You may also not be aware of the ongoing investigation into the identity of Doctor Scratch. Also, you may not know of the times my identity has been revealed on other boards or alluded to on Mormon-themed blogs.

The beauty of the MGF is that it sounds positive and benign, while creating an obvious set of resources in organization and money to engage in information warfare. We would be naïve not to suspect it, given the LDS Church’s history of spying on and attacking critics.

Thanks, Kish. I'm just trying to make sure that I'm aware of whatever evidence there is. I really can't recall whether I was posting here when Belmont was. I've read some old stuff, so I recognize him from that. What I don't know is, was there any reason to believe his claim that he worked for LDS church security? Or was he trolling folks here with that, too. Was he claiming he was posting as part of his job?

I'm generally aware of the doxxing that has occurred, including the fact that you were doxxed and the attempts to identify Dr. Scratch. I've never tried to go through the history blow by blow? Was the doxxing all one-way? Or were LDS defenders doxxed as well? My own personal experience in forums involving Mormonism is that there is a relative high frequency of people trying to find out who another poster "really" is. If all the claims of sock puppetry made here were taken seriously, I think you and I would be the only real people -- and I wouldn't be sure about you.

I agree that it's possible that someone pays trolls to disrupt things here. Or "assigns" them as part of an organized volunteer effort. But trolling happens pretty organically. It was great sport a while ago for some ex-mormons to troll missionaries and then publicly post the chat transcripts. But I don't believe anyone paid or assigned them to do it. Someone started it and then others copied.

The trolling that goes on here looks to me like trolling that is ubiquitous to any open, lightly moderated, online discussion group. So I'm interested in whatever evidence there is out there that might lead me to adopt a different view.

[_Dr Exiled]

I don't think there is anything wrong with being aware of the possibilities and being vigilant. Some on sic et non or MD&D would not think twice in contacting family or church leaders, etc., for the cause no doubt, if they got a hold of someone's identity. Also, the Strengthening the Members Committee is a thing and has a file on Consiglieri and probably many that frequent this site. I tried to find the reference where Consig talks about his brush with the committee but could not. Maybe someone here or Consig himself can provide the reference?

[_Kishkumen]

Thanks, Kish. I'm just trying to make sure that I'm aware of whatever evidence there is. I really can't recall whether I was posting here when Belmont was. I've read some old stuff, so I recognize him from that. What I don't know is, was there any reason to believe his claim that he worked for LDS church security? Or was he trolling folks here with that, too. Was he claiming he was posting as part of his job?

I'm generally aware of the doxxing that has occurred, including the fact that you were doxxed and the attempts to identify Dr. Scratch. I've never tried to go through the history blow by blow? Was the doxxing all one-way? Or were LDS defenders doxxed as well? My own personal experience in forums involving Mormonism is that there is a relative high frequency of people trying to find out who another poster "really" is. If all the claims of sock puppetry made here were taken seriously, I think you and I would be the only real people -- and I wouldn't be sure about you.

I agree that it's possible that someone pays trolls to disrupt things here. Or "assigns" them as part of an organized volunteer effort. But trolling happens pretty organically. It was great sport a while ago for some ex-mormons to troll missionaries and then publicly post the chat transcripts. But I don't believe anyone paid or assigned them to do it. Someone started it and then others copied.

The trolling that goes on here looks to me like trolling that is ubiquitous to any open, lightly moderated, online discussion group. So I'm interested in whatever evidence there is out there that might lead me to adopt a different view.

Yes, I agree that trolling happens organically. That is one reason it is easy to recruit volunteer trolls. There are also paid trolls. Distinguishing between paid trolls, organized volunteer trolls, and independent trolls is difficult and beyond my technological savvy and resources in time. That said, if you know the tactics and watch closely, you can probably pick up on patterns, etc. It does not hurt to remain at least somewhat vigilant.

After all, there is a history here. A history involving calling employers. A history of spying on professors. A history of collecting files on people. So, would we not want to consider the possible use of electronic resources to fight criticism of Mormonism? John Dehlin was the target of an electronic surveillance effort. What would you consider too kooky?

If a poster shows up knowing lots of interesting details about the people who post here and yet exhibiting other odd gaps in knowledge, is it paranoid to think that someone could be watching and taking notes?

[_Kishkumen]

I don't think there is anything wrong with being aware of the possibilities and being vigilant. Some on sic et non or MD&D would not think twice in contacting family or church leaders, etc., for the cause no doubt, if they got a hold of someone's identity. Also, the Strengthening the Members Committee is a thing and has a file on Consiglieri and probably many that frequent this site. I tried to find the reference where Consig talks about his brush with the committee but could not. Maybe someone here or Consig himself can provide the reference?

He alluded to it in his recent MoSto interview.

[_Dr Exiled]

I don't think there is anything wrong with being aware of the possibilities and being vigilant. Some on sic et non or MD&D would not think twice in contacting family or church leaders, etc., for the cause no doubt, if they got a hold of someone's identity. Also, the Strengthening the Members Committee is a thing and has a file on Consiglieri and probably many that frequent this site. I tried to find the reference where Consig talks about his brush with the committee but could not. Maybe someone here or Consig himself can provide the reference?

He alluded to it in his recent MoSto interview.

Thanks.

[_Dr Exiled]

Here is where Radio Free Mormon (Consiglieri) talks about his file at the Strengthening the Church Members Committee: https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/05/radio-free-mormon-064-spying-for-the-lord/