The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

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_Gadianton
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _Gadianton »

I assume the apologists will say that yes, Joseph Smith just read off the rock, which knew where to look on the plates. But then Mormon put the effort after completing the large plates, to translate and insert the small plates in between the right large plate sections as if it needed to be in the same order as the final format of the Book of Mormon, which was unnecessary. He could have just stuck the small plates at the end, because the rock would know when and what parts of the plates to access.

But the translation was really done in the spirit world by the great reformers. So they translated everything linearly from beginning to end just like Mormon put it together and sync'd it up to the rock.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Physics Guy
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _Physics Guy »

Sounds as though the plates needed defragging.
_DonBradley
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _DonBradley »

It's late here in Zion, so just a quick note right now, and an explanation later.

What makes it all in some ways less weird but perhaps in other ways weirder is that, actually, the small plates weren't bound with Mormon's plates. While this is the image we were all given, and what we were told, this isn't actually what the text says at all.

More soon!

Don
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _Kishkumen »

thechair wrote:Wait a minute. How did Joseph know where in the plates to resume translating (at Mosiah) after a year’s hiatus... especially since the plates weren’t necessary or often present during the translation process? Did the rock have a spiritual sticky note or something?


Yes! I asked that very same question above on a much more roundabout way.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _Kishkumen »

Thanks, Don. Just so we have the text in a convenient place:

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king dBenjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.
4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—
5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.
6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.
7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will.
8 And my prayer to God is concerning my brethren, that they may once again come to the knowledge of God, yea, the redemption of Christ; that they may once again be a delightsome people.
9 And now I, Mormon, proceed to finish out my record, which I take from the plates of Nephi; and I make it according to the knowledge and the understanding which God has given me.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_DarkHelmet
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Gadianton wrote:I assume the apologists will say that yes, Joseph Smith just read off the rock, which knew where to look on the plates. But then Mormon put the effort after completing the large plates, to translate and insert the small plates in between the right large plate sections as if it needed to be in the same order as the final format of the Book of Mormon, which was unnecessary. He could have just stuck the small plates at the end, because the rock would know when and what parts of the plates to access.


I like this explanation. It fits in nicely with the stone as a smartphone theory. His seer stone was a smart stone that knew which order to translate the plates. This also explains why the plates didn't need to be open and present to translate. The stone could read the plates from a distance and in the correct order. It makes perfect sense, not to normal people, but to TBMs it makes perfect sense.
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_Dr Moore
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _Dr Moore »

Had to go back and read several passages and related things again after this post, Reverend. Thank you for your reminder to search the scriptures.

I always read WoM as a narrative explanation for inserting the small plates before the book of Mosiah, performed after Mormon's full abridgment (through Mormon 7) was complete. Mormon wraps his work up by inserting the small plates, again right before Mosiah, and leaves a note (the WoM) to tell the reader that he is including this separate spiritual record for some wise purpose, but he doesn't really know why.

We know he did it this way because he says so in Words of Mormon. The small plates can't have been added at the physical end of the abridgment, because (a) Moroni never mentions moving things around to make room for Mormon 8-9, Ether, and the book of Moroni -- he simply says there is very little room left and he fills that room with the most important things, and (b) WoM reads in-line with and as connecting tissue to the pre Mosiah story, "down to the reign of this king Benjamin." He would not have said "this" king if the small plates + WoM were loosely included with the abridgment, that would make the reading of WoM totally incoherent.

So, Reverend, your point is really interesting in view of the Mosian priory. For Joseph to continue dictating the story after losing the 116 pages, he would have had to skip over the redundant small plates and the WoM. You're right, doesn't make sense.

And sure, Dean Robbers, the rock in a hat would know just where to go next based on Joseph's mindful wish to proceed in continuity with the story: problem solved. But then consider this -- your fresh apologetic adds a brand new miraculous feature to the chocolate colored stone. You have unwittingly revealed another "app" to the 19th century "iPhone"! To recap, the stone
(1) shows a glowing word or series of words
(2) with precise spelling of some words but allowing for scribal errors
(3) allows space for Joseph to insert his own considered contemporary ideas and phrases into the narrative
(4- all new!) skips pages on the plates to continue certain parts of the story uninterrupted
_Gadianton
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _Gadianton »

Dr. Moore wrote:The small plates can't have been added at the physical end of the abridgment, because (a) Moroni never mentions moving things around to make room for Mormon 8-9, Ether, and the book of Moroni -- he simply says there is very little room left and he fills that room with the most important things, and (b) WoM reads in-line with and as connecting tissue to the pre Mosiah story, "down to the reign of this king Benjamin."


If I'm following, then the text of the Book of Mormon commits Moroni to putting the small plates before Mosiah, and therefore they couldn't have been tacked on at the end. I'd have a hard time disagreeing with that. But he wouldn't have done that had not the Holy Ghost inspired him to do so, correct?

If we assume the Holy Ghost prompts according to all available information past present and future, then it was as if he were being inspired to put the plates in narrative order so that they could be translated according to the way simpletons would expect an ancient record to be decrypted, from beginning of story to end, by someone with knowledge of the languages. But that doesn't account for the magic rock, which doesn't care about the order. If it would have been easier to tack them at the end or even keep them together but separately bound, since the Holy Ghost knows the magic rock doesn't need to be placated by storybook order it's more work for Mormon to splice it in as if under a false pretense.

a brand new miraculous feature to the chocolate colored stone


Perhaps there's a Mopologetic version of "Moore's Law" at work? From training wheels to self-driving luxury sedan.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _Kishkumen »

Yes, I have always read them as Dr. Moore does. It will be interesting to see what Don has to say. I believe there is some ambiguity because of the repeated use of the non-descript word “things,” which sometimes looks like it is referring to the text and, arguably, at other times the small plates. If one insists on “things” referring strictly to the content of the text, then our interpretation may not hold up.

Particularly vexing is this passage:

Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them . . . .


I see “upon” encouraging me to read “things” as referring to the small plates in this instance. But, if it is the “things” meaning “prophecies” earlier in the text, then “upon” could arguably mean something like “on the topic of,” and that could indicate that the rest of the record is abridged with the goal of showing how the prophecies were fulfilled. That would make quite a bit of sense, and it would explain why the opening part of the abridgment, which was stolen, did not have the same thrust as the rest of the abridgment and the replacement text together. The small plates ended up changing Mormon’s agenda.

That is quite compatible with a believer’s perspective. A skeptic would say that this was Joseph’s wonderful cover story for the changes that resulted from the theft of the original, unfinished manuscript.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Plates Don't Make Sense to Me

Post by _Kishkumen »

consiglieri wrote:It is possible sealing the majority of the plates saved Joseph the trouble of inscribing them all.

Sort of like putting a couple of hundreds on top of a stack of ones.


Great thought, consiglieri!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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