On Schryvergate and Mental Health

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_MsJack
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On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _MsJack »

Over the years, several people have told me that they didn't comment publicly on my Schryver misogyny thread because they believe William Schryver has mental health issues and his psyche is fragile. Others have suggested that I shouldn't have run the thread for these same reasons---out of consideration for his delicate mental health---or that the condemnation of him here at MDB has been bad for his mental health.

I have no idea if the reports of his mental health issues are true, and my purpose in repeating the reports here isn't to spread rumors and innuendo. Mental health issues are no joke and I wish William nothing but the best in this regard.

My question is, how come critics never get the same consideration for our own health issues (mental or otherwise) or for extreme challenges that we're dealing with in our personal lives?

I'll give you two examples:

In June/July 2010, I got into a well-publicized dispute with Dan Peterson and Russell McGregor over an old FARMS Review of Books review of my friend J. P. Holding's book. The dispute spanned this forum and MADB and encompassed a number of threads. It involved the publication of my private correspondence without my permission.

At the time, I specifically mentioned on the boards that I was dealing with literal homelessness. The Chicago windstorm of 6-23-10 had damaged the roof of my apartment building so badly that our apartment was declared uninhabitable within hours. We had to move all of our belongings out and stay with friends. It was one of the most stressful things I have had to deal with in my adult life.

No one stopped. No one gave me a break. The crew at MADB ran thread after thread attacking me again and again (and running my private correspondence again and again), even though they were well aware that I was dealing with homelessness. There was no mercy, no compassion, no consideration for what was an incredibly difficult situation for me.

Here's another example. In 2012, Schryver and McGregor were attacking me on MADB, calling me things like "feminazi" and "man-hater" (without posting a lick of evidence for these slurs). I developed a psychosomatic reaction to their attacks. I literally wound up in the hospital on narcotic painkillers as a direct result of what they posted.

I don't blame the men in question for not knowing about this. I don't believe I ever mentioned it on the forums (frankly, I was afraid they'd only escalate the attacks to intentionally try and provoke more medical episodes if I said something).

My question is, why are we expected to tip-toe around the delicate psyches of apologists, but when it comes to critics, it's always and forever full speed ahead? I'm sure others in this forum can recall times when apologists were ruthless despite critics dealing with severe mental health and other issues.

Anyhow, since we're apparently expected to show leniency for mental health issues and other challenges in each other's personal lives, here's some things about me you might not know:

  • My father was verbally, emotionally, and sometimes physically abusive. I left home for BYU at age 18 for more reasons than one.
  • I was nearly murdered by a girl my age when I was 10 years old. This girl grew up to be a roller derby champion in Anchorage.
  • My friend was kidnapped, raped, and murdered when I was 9 and she was 11.
  • I have a diagnosis of "Major Depressive Disorder -- Recurring -- Currently in Remission."
  • My first husband, whom I was married to for 11 years, was a clinical sociopath who loudly and frequently bragged about his sociopathy. He was verbally and emotionally abusive, spiritually coercive, and threatened me physically several times. He was also a serial adulterer whose adultery went back to our BYU days, something I did not learn the full extent of until after our divorce.

I guess I'm looking forward to receiving some of that leniency from now on.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_candygal
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Re: On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _candygal »

I don't know you very well Ms. Jack..but you sure have my admiration for all you have been through.

I think there are a lot of people who owe you some apologies. Those people are the ones who lack any empathy outside of their "correct" thought.

I am hoping your comments here will reach all the boards.

Many hugs,
Candygal
_Fence Sitter
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Re: On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Hey Jack,


Sorry to hear all that you have dealt with in you life but frankly I was never aware of most of it, even though I generally read what ever you post and based on the tenor and quality of your posts I would never have thought you were dealing with such issues in real life.

Secondly I wonder at the wisdom of revealing all the above, even years down the line. I think you still need to be cautious about how personal information could be used against you, especially when it is of a medical nature.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Gadianton
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Re: On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _Gadianton »

Ms Jack,

If it doesn't break confidences, some of us would like to know who has been saying Schryver isn't man enough to take a licking? Are these his friends and is there any indication that they've been relaying a message he himself is trying to get out?

It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that here was a guy who used to go around saying that he "fights to kill" and getting big pats on his back from DCP and others for saying stuff like this.

I think what many appreciate most about the work you've done on Mopologist antics is how well documented it is, and you're able to bring about a case that is truly damning. It's not like the desperate witch hunts the apologists have engaged in concerning Dehlin or Palmer, where they go on and on for page after page after page documenting irrelevancies and bringing illogical arguments to the table. They aren't convincing to anybody but themselves because it's obviously just yellow journalism. Where real offenses happened, you made your case very well and people listened who weren't necessarily on your side, and they were convinced.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_The Stig
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Re: On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _The Stig »

MsJack wrote:My question is, why are we expected to tip-toe around the delicate psyches of apologists, but when it comes to critics, it's always and forever full speed ahead? I'm sure others in this forum can recall times when apologists were ruthless despite critics dealing with severe mental health and other issues.


in my opinion, it's the "ends justify the means" mindset so prevalent amongst the apologetic crowd. Defending the church is the highest mission. Individuals can be sacrificed on the altar of protecting the "good name" of the church, so no thought is given to the personal well-being of the opponent. Both sides use that kind of rationalization for some of their actions, but it appears to be more acute and harsh (on average) amongst the apologists.
_Lemmie
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Re: On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _Lemmie »

Gad, I think I can give an example of what MsJack is referring to, although it certainly doesn’t rise to the level of what she experienced.

In a recent thread where I was objecting to what I (and virtually everyone on the thread) considered to be egregiously inappropriate sexist statements, I was quite non-plussed to find that the offender was apparently being given a pass by a few due to perceived “mental deficiencies,” and my standard objections to the blatant sexism were now being defined by at least one as an inappropriate attack on a helpless male! :rolleyes: The sexist poster’s actual personal attacks on me, however, received no such scrutiny. Go figure.
_MsJack
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Re: On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _MsJack »

Thanks for the kind comments. I plan to talk about most of these things in my memoir anyhow, so I don't mind bringing it up. I'm also in a really good place right now (good marriage, new house, new job starting soon, working on PhD, new hobby that I love, baby on the way). I just get tired of the suggestion that we should take it easy on William when he (and others) have never taken it easy on any of us, and plenty of us have had our own challenges.

Sounds like the "creepy dossier" on me was painfully thin, so let them add the stuff I've volunteered to it.

Gad -- Bizarrely enough, I have heard this from both friends and admirers of his and critics, and it has come up again and agsin over the years. I guess hypermasculinity is fragile.

But I have not heard it firsthand from him, so take it with as much salt as you need.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_MsJack
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Re: On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _MsJack »

The Stig wrote:in my opinion, it's the "ends justify the means" mindset so prevalent amongst the apologetic crowd. Defending the church is the highest mission. Individuals can be sacrificed on the altar of protecting the "good name" of the church, so no thought is given to the personal well-being of the opponent. Both sides use that kind of rationalization for some of their actions, but it appears to be more acute and harsh (on average) amongst the apologists.

I think you are onto something here, Tim.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_Analytics
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Re: On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _Analytics »

MsJack,

First off, I'm glad you are doing well. It is terrifying to think that words on message boards can hurt people as much as they sometimes do.

About the issues you raise, I'd simply suggest that everybody should have a lot of sympathy and empathy for others and should treat others well. I suppose a few people out there are truly strong and have fabulous lives in all areas. But most of us have some physical, mental, financial, professional, marital, familial, and personal issues. Even in real life, you can't always know what is behind somebody else's smile.

I would guess that if an apologist doesn't follow the golden rule, it's just a symptom of his own mental and emotional problems, which might be magnified because deep down, he probably knows he is on the losing side of the argument.

When somebody has their back against the wall and is getting their ass kicked, I'm less morally outraged when they pull a dirty punch.

Best,

Analytics
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Gadianton
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Re: On Schryvergate and Mental Health

Post by _Gadianton »

Lemmie, I think I might know what situation you're speaking of, if I'm right, I've forbidden myself from following that issue altogether. ; ) But, generally I think if people are well enough to get online and run their mouths then they're well enough to take criticism.

Ms. Jack,

well, it's also true that Dr. Cam offered to spar with Will in the ring MMA style, and Will chickened out. So it wouldn't surprise me if he has pressured his friends into begging for mercy on his behalf, but I wouldn't want to misrepresent anything. In this case I must have really missed something. There are a handful of board personalities I've struggled to avoid engaging with and have gone as far as putting them on ignore, out of concern of an bad situation happening due to mental incompetency, but I'd never have put Will within the same ballpark. He's 100% fully accountable for anything he's ever said.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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