Ghost Committee Theology

[_Dr Exiled]

I think it's clear that one needs years of study and refinement in order to discuss the minute details contained in ghost committee theology. However, even lay persons must come to the conclusion that the ghost committee comprises only the very elect of the Lord's army. The Lord held out special valiant individuals in reserve for his holy committee to one day imbue the world with His holy committee pronouncements.

[_Finn the human]

Adam Clarke
Jane Lead
John L. Mosheim
Charles Buck
Thomas Dick
Flavius Josephus
Plato
Origin
Proclus
John Allen
William Hone

No reason this should be an all spirit boy's club.

Jean D'Arc
Lucretia Borgia
Queen Boudicca of the Iceni
Alys, Wife of Bath

I think it’s a safe assumption that being on the ghost committee is a priesthood only calling. Have you seen the way women are represented in the Book of Mormon? Half the characters are whores or complainers if I remember correctly. Incidentally, has anyone checked out the subreddit r/MenWritingWomen? It seems appropriate to mention it now.

[_Symmachus]

Since the claim is that the EMoD in the Book of Mormon shows someone like Tyndale produced the translation from the reformed Egyptian into EMoD laced English, that would show that Tyndale is still speaking and writing in the language of his mortal life, even in the spirit world? Does this mean in the spirit world everyone speaks a different language? How do they communicate? If Mormon is there to help Tyndale translate reformed Egyptian, how are he and Tyndale talking to each other at all? In Hebrew maybe? Why would Tyndale produce a translation based on a version of English no one was speaking in the 19th century? What, God couldn't afford to hire an editor after Tyndale finished? Someone who might of pointed out that "and it came to pass" was being used bit too frequently.

So Tyndale, new to the spirit world, is tasked with producing the translation from a language he does not speak into a version of English that no one will be speaking when his translation is finally used. His work sits for a few hundred years when it is then beamed directly into the stone in Joseph Smith's hat to be read to Oliver Cowdery. What should have been produced then is a translation that looked like a man of Tynedale's writing ability would have produced. What appeared was manuscript that clearly was dictated and written down by someone whose grammar, and punctuation matched the education levels of Joseph and Oliver. What was the point of Tyndale producing a translation if it was going to be butchered like that?

What a mess.

I don't think it is quite the mess you make it out to be, if we understand the Translation Committees as something closer to Composition Committees. These Committees were formed to compose the texts that were revealed to Joseph Smith through the interpreters, etc. We will undoubtedly find the fingerprints of the various members of these Committees in the final texts, but then that is what one would expect from the Committee process.

Seems to me that the translation committee was indeed a "Committee in the Arte of Translacioun," and that they contracted with Athanasius Kircher as a subject matter expert on the Reformed Egyptian. The influence of Kircher, moreover, would sure help bridge the gap between the Book of Abraham and the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.

[_Kishkumen]

Seems to me that the translation committee was indeed a "Committee in the Arte of Translacioun," and that they contracted with Athanasius Kircher as a subject matter expert on the Reformed Egyptian. The influence of Kircher, moreover, would sure help bridge the gap between the Book of Abraham and the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.

Indeed, dear consul. Athanasius must be considered a likely member of the Committee. Still what the “Arte of Translacioun” precisely was in this case seems poorly understood.

[_Dr Moore]

Is the Ghost Committee really a doctrinally sound idea?

It seems incredibly problematic to insert unknown spirit intermediaries between the living prophet and God.

Mormon theology about spirit service is pretty wide open due to the mysterious idea that spirits teach other spirits about the gospel in the spirit world while awaiting resurrection. But that’s a situation where the parties involved purportedly are doing things face to face, no secrets. And Joseph taught it explicitly.

A group of spirit translators coopting Joseph’s translation means that God commissioned a hidden intermediary to do the work for Joseph, didn’t tell Joseph about it, and this group effectively stands in between God and Joseph to produce what we have in the Book of Mormon.

Consider the twisting turns of a theology that evolves from God <> Prophet to a messy orgy of opinions erupting when God <> Committee <> Prophet.

It’s not just difficult for something billed as a single step miraculous translation by Joseph by the gift and power of God. But that is a challenge to Mormon theology in which God commands angels to go down and do this or that specific thing. Now he also commands a group of intellectual spirits to undertake a scholarly task with outcome unknown?

It also begs the question of whether committee voices get to bypass the holy ghost. Do they? I mean, committee got their Early Modern English verbiage into the channel. What else? And continuing on the thread, we should now ask which old opinionated prophet influenced the current leader to perpetuate bad ideas well beyond their expiration date? How many living prophets did Brigham scare into perpetuating exclusionary racism? For that matter, which ancient racist spirit gave Brigham his racist ideas in the first place? Do dead prophets sometimes prank living ones with nutty ideas just for fun — such as the name on Bigfoot’s realID?

In short, does the prophet, seer and revelation speak for God, in a clean line of inspiration, or does the prophet have to sort through the din of dead prophets first? (note: practically speaking, this happens anyway)

The conceptual framework also starts to look increasingly fringe conspiracy if we give full credit to Joseph’s own writings and statements about himself and the provenance of the plates and his translation, his revelations and the purity of the Book of Mormon text.

I think the issue would be at least as divisive as the heartland movement if it gained more momentum by any faction of apologists. My view is the subtlety with which Skousen attempts to crack open a door of miraculous mystery will never be opened further by LDS leaders or apologists.

[_Kishkumen]

It seems incredibly problematic to insert unknown spirit intermediaries between the living prophet and God.

Prophets have contact with angels and spirits. We often do not know who they were. Sometimes it seems the prophet does not know their precise identity. I don’t see anything unprecedented here.

Mormon theology about spirit service is pretty wide open due to the mysterious idea that spirits teach other spirits about the gospel in the spirit world while awaiting resurrection. But that’s a situation where the parties involved purportedly are doing things face to face, no secrets. And Joseph taught it explicitly.

Sure, when those involved are on the same side of the veil. But we both know of situations, including ordinances, in which they are not. One does not immediately know who is on the other side helping us.

A group of spirit translators coopting Joseph’s translation means that God commissioned a hidden intermediary to do the work for Joseph, didn’t tell Joseph about it, and this group effectively stands in between God and Joseph to produce what we have in the Book of Mormon.

They are not coopting. God assigned them to this committee, and I do not see anything untoward about Him using the mechanism He deems best.If you are familiar with the endowment, then you know how priesthood delegation works.

Consider the twisting turns of a theology that evolves from God <> Prophet to a messy orgy of opinions erupting when God <> Committee <> Prophet.

The Council is a normal part of the heavenly society. In the beginning were the gods. I am not seeing the problem.

It’s not just difficult for something billed as a single step miraculous translation by Joseph by the gift and power of God. But that is a challenge to Mormon theology in which God commands angels to go down and do this or that specific thing. Now he also commands a group of intellectual spirits to undertake a scholarly task with outcome unknown?

We know the outcome. It is the Book of Mormon. I am not seeing the contradictions and inconsistencies you imagine. The text was communicated to Joseph by the gift and power of God. An angel or group of angels is assigned to a task. A group of spirits is assigned to a task. It works according to the same divine power, authority, and method.

It also begs the question of whether committee voices get to bypass the holy ghost. Do they? I mean, committee got their Early Modern English verbiage into the channel. What else? And continuing on the thread, we should now ask which old opinionated prophet influenced the current leader to perpetuate bad ideas well beyond their expiration date? How many living prophets did Brigham scare into perpetuating exclusionary racism? For that matter, which ancient racist spirit gave Brigham his racist ideas in the first place? Do dead prophets sometimes prank living ones with nutty ideas just for fun — such as the name on Bigfoot’s realID?

In short, does the prophet, seer and revelation speak for God, in a clean line of inspiration, or does the prophet have to sort through the din of dead prophets first? (note: practically speaking, this happens anyway)

The conceptual framework also starts to look increasingly fringe conspiracy if we give full credit to Joseph’s own writings and statements about himself and the provenance of the plates and his translation, his revelations and the purity of the Book of Mormon text.

I think the issue would be at least as divisive as the heartland movement if it gained more momentum by any faction of apologists. My view is the subtlety with which Skousen attempts to crack open a door of miraculous mystery will never be opened further by LDS leaders or apologists.

The more you argue against this, the greater the advantages I see in it. It is the nature of our mortal minds to demand perfection and simplicity when, in fact, the world disappoints our expectations. In this case, the version that cuts out the family of God for the simplicity of a transcendent God working directly with the single individual that seems desirable reflects a less developed faith with lower tolerance for how things are.

The door that you are concerned about opening is opened.

[_Dr Moore]

The more you argue against this, the greater the advantages I see in it...

The door that you are concerned about opening is opened.

I’m happy to be of service. Mosquitos spread disease to strengthen the immune system. I’ll keep brooding about ways to frustrate your new theology.

[_Kishkumen]

I’m happy to be of service. Mosquitos spread disease to strengthen the immune system. I’ll keep brooding about ways to frustrate your new theology.

Now, let us give credit where it is due! The theology is Joseph Smith’s! And we are indebted to Professor Skousen for casting light on a new corner of it.

[_Mahujah]

Seems to me that the translation committee was indeed a "Committee in the Arte of Translacioun," and that they contracted with Athanasius Kircher as a subject matter expert on the Reformed Egyptian. The influence of Kircher, moreover, would sure help bridge the gap between the Book of Abraham and the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.

Indeed, dear consul. Athanasius must be considered a likely member of the Committee.

And Kircher was already hard at work translating the writings of Nephi, the Egyptian Jew.

"No writer before Kircher makes reference to Abenephius, and no one after him has ever found the book in question. Worse, Abenephius’ identity isn’t even consistent in Kircher’s own work. Originally, he referred to the writer as Rabbi Barachias Nephi of Babylon, and in time he became Abenephius the Arab, a scholar of presumably Egyptian extraction. “Babylon” was the old name for Cairo, suggesting the origin of the connection—an attempt to make the text more Egyptian—and Rabbi Nephi could easily slide into Abba Nephi and Abenephius."

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/the-s ... ptian-lore

I also nominate Johannes Kelpius, the Transylvanian mystic who after meeting with Jane Leade in London immigrated to the wilderness of Pennsylvania in 1698 to wait out the second coming of Jesus with the lost tribes of America. Unfortunately, we don't know what happened to the philosopher's stone he threw into the Wissahickon River.

[_Kishkumen]

And Kircher was already hard at work translating the writings of Nephi, the Egyptian Jew.

"No writer before Kircher makes reference to Abenephius, and no one after him has ever found the book in question. Worse, Abenephius’ identity isn’t even consistent in Kircher’s own work. Originally, he referred to the writer as Rabbi Barachias Nephi of Babylon, and in time he became Abenephius the Arab, a scholar of presumably Egyptian extraction. “Babylon” was the old name for Cairo, suggesting the origin of the connection—an attempt to make the text more Egyptian—and Rabbi Nephi could easily slide into Abba Nephi and Abenephius."

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/the-s ... ptian-lore

You are right, of course, Mahujah. Kircher learned of Nephi in life and carried that knowledge to the world of spirits, where he used that knowledge to inform the "translation" of the Book of Mormon. Indeed, he instructed Joseph Smith on how to handle revealing some of the characters, even though it had not worked so well for him:

When he announced that he had in possession the manuscript of Barachias on the hieroglyphs, he refused to allow anyone to read it in its entirety, and those who saw the one page he made available noted that it seemed to be a pretty straightforward plagiarism of Horapollon and some Renaissance works on Egypt, such as the Thesaurus Hieroglyphicum.

Note that Horapollon was used in the translation of the Book of Abraham. The otherworldly influence of Kircher continued to direct Smith in his "translations" for years.

I also nominate Johannes Kelpius, the Transylvanian mystic who after meeting with Jane Leade in London immigrated to the wilderness of Pennsylvania in 1698 to wait out the second coming of Jesus with the lost tribes of America. Unfortunately, we don't know what happened to the philosopher's stone he threw into the Wissahickon River.

This is another possibility that must be taken seriously. Kelpius taught Smith, among other things, that important events must be timed in an astrologically auspicious way.

In any case, Mahujah, many thanks for bringing up these possibilities. I am always delighted to see you chime in on these kinds of topics. My dream would be to have more regular discussions here that inspired you to do so.