The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

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_Aristotle Smith
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The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

I was wondering today: Is the honor code/church handbook change is the fastest policy change in the history of the LDS church? For example, the now infamous November policy of exclusion was given in November 2015 and then rescinded in April 2019. That was a very short 3.5 years for a policy to be active.

The honor code change is in one way even faster than that. On January 1, 2020, the LDS church severed all ties with the Boy Scouts of America, largely over LGBTQ issues. See this SL Trib article. In there is a quote that is fascinating to me:

"The reality there is we didn’t really leave them; they kind of left us," Latter-day Saint apostle M. Russell Ballard recently said about the split.

His comment upset Boy Scout officials, Perry said, because the organization went to great lengths to ensure the faith still had robust religious liberty protections after the Scouts welcomed openly gay troop members and leaders — even allowing the church to craft the language.


So the split was clearly about LGBTQ issues. The church at the time did not want its youths or leaders engaging in LGBTQ activities and left because of that. But, a mere 50 days later on February 19, 2020 the LDS church drops opposition to homosexual activities among youth (and presumably adults) as long as the activities don't have an intention to lead to marriage (whatever that means).

50 days between pulling 400,000 LDS youth out of a program over concerns about LGBTQ issues to telling those very same youth that LGBTQ issues aren't a concern unless you plan on pursuing gay marriage. I'm pretty sure the BSA never was advocating for gay marriage among youth scouts.

I realize I'm being kind of arbitrary about defining the length of time between policy changes. In one sense a policy change is always instantaneous. One moment a policy is one thing, an announcement is made, and the policy has changed. But there does seem to be something bizarrely rapid about this sequence of events.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Aristotle Smith wrote:But, a mere 50 days later on February 19, 2020 the LDS church drops opposition to homosexual activities among youth (and presumably adults) as long as the activities don't have an intention to lead to marriage (whatever that means).

Are you referring to the Honor Code Office at BYU declaring that they'd no longer punish homosexual displays of affection? 'Cause that sounds far, far different from the church itself doing what you're describing.

Please clarify.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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_Gadianton
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Re: The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _Gadianton »

Dr. Shades,

I think he's talking about the honor code changes at BYU and BYU-I that were simultaneous and dramatic, and impossible to account for without invoking directive from the Brethren; yet due to potential controversy, were left without explanation in order to lend as much deniability as possible to the Brethren.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Gadianton wrote:Dr. Shades,

I think he's talking about the honor code changes at BYU and BYU-I that were simultaneous and dramatic, and impossible to account for without invoking directive from the Brethren; yet due to potential controversy, were left without explanation in order to lend as much deniability as possible to the Brethren.


Correct.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Aristotle Smith wrote:Correct.

In that case, I don't think it rises to the status of a "policy change" because the church can and will still punish homosexuality outside of BYU. The "BYU-only" modus operandi is so the university can continue to host conferences, receive student loan funding and PELL grants, etc., nothing more.

It's still business as usual in off-campus.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Aristotle Smith wrote:Correct.

In that case, I don't think it rises to the status of a "policy change" because the church can and will still punish homosexuality outside of BYU. The "BYU-only" modus operandi is so the university can continue to host conferences, receive student loan funding and PELL grants, etc., nothing more.

It's still business as usual in off-campus.


If that is the true intention, then the GA's are as dumb as they come. I don't think they are that dumb.

Suppose for a minute that the intention is to only enforce the rules on BYU and that everyone else is supposed to live by the previous set of rules. That's going to last for a year at most. At some point a potential BYU student will be denied entrance based on doing things that are now kosher according to the honor code. They go to the press and the ruse falls apart. There's no way BYU gets conferences, PELL grants, and funding by enforcing the old set of rules on potential students, while enforcing a different set of rules on current students.

I think most members already see this as at least applying to all youth and college aged students. You just can't sell the idea that BYU is a place where the rules are more relaxed than the average LDS ward.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Aristotle Smith wrote:I think most members already see this as at least applying to all youth and college aged students. You just can't sell the idea that BYU is a place where the rules are more relaxed than the average LDS ward.


This was my thought as well. If there are two standards being enforced there are going to be problems quickly that will quickly make the social media rounds.

I can see a gay couple from BYU attending their ward together during a weekend home, holding hands at the meeting. When the hometown bishop says something, their immediate response is that the BYU bishop says this is allowed.

Interesting times for sure as I am quite confident this will happen. Given the leadership roulette that occurs throughout the church there is sure to be some bigoted bishop/stake president intent on maintaining the straight purity in his ward/stake.

What is really interesting regarding this abrupt change is that top leadership is now allowing public expressions homosexual behavior in a highly heterosexual environment in front of all ages. What happened to the reasoning behind the awful 2015 policy prohibiting the children of married gay people from being baptized? Top LDS leadership claimed it was so those children would not be confused with two different lifestyles. Now we are here just three years later or so and that same leadership is allowing those "conflicting" life styles to be on full display at the Lord's university. So much for being worried about confusing children.

Honestly what we are really seeing is knee jerk leadership trying desperately to appeal to a generation they simply do not understand. The impact of this policy is only going to accelerate the opinions of younger Mormons that gay behavior is normal which will in turn bring more pressure to bear on leadership to open the doors of the church and soon after the temple to gay marriage.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_moksha
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Re: The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _moksha »

That new recommendation by Kirton McConkie that potential students sign their admissions oath in blood will be of assistance as cases work their way up the Utah Court System. If the Honor Code Committee decides to resume draconian operations, this new blood oath will aid in casting spells.

The other new change that has escaped any notice, is that the Strengthening the Membership Committee has changed its name to the General Oblation Board.
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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Professor Smith, if I may:

The comparison I have been seeing the most is with the Priesthood Ban. For outside observers, didn't this sort of seem to "come out of the blue"? I mean, sure: there was a lot of social pressure, and ugly incidents, but if you are just looking at it from the perspective of the secular media, or ex-Mormons, or even the typical rank-and-file person, doesn't that also wind up seeming like a "fast" policy change? Decades and decades of racist policy, and then *POOF!*, one day it all just goes away?

I do think you raise an interesting question, though, which is: How--if at all--is it possible to quantify policy-making decisions? I think that part of the difficulty in doing this lies in the fact that none of us has been privy to the Brethren's deliberations. That is always the case: whatever you get is just rumors and hearsay. But I would be willing to be that there was (and perhaps still *is*) some very serious, and very interesting, haggling going on behind the scenes. There is another difficulty here in that, unlike the "Witnesses" movie, it's not as if the Brethren can do a "roll-out" of a new, more tolerant policy on LGBTQ+ issues.
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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: The Fastest Policy Change Ever?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Doctor Scratch wrote:The comparison I have been seeing the most is with the Priesthood Ban. For outside observers, didn't this sort of seem to "come out of the blue"? I mean, sure: there was a lot of social pressure, and ugly incidents, but if you are just looking at it from the perspective of the secular media, or ex-Mormons, or even the typical rank-and-file person, doesn't that also wind up seeming like a "fast" policy change? Decades and decades of racist policy, and then *POOF!*, one day it all just goes away?


Yes, I acknowledged that my distinction was somewhat arbitrary. These kinds of changes are always going to seem fast--one moment you are living under one set of rules, the next you aren't. My main point was the fact that you have major policy decisions which are at odds with each other happening very close together.

Doctor Scratch wrote:I do think you raise an interesting question, though, which is: How--if at all--is it possible to quantify policy-making decisions? I think that part of the difficulty in doing this lies in the fact that none of us has been privy to the Brethren's deliberations. That is always the case: whatever you get is just rumors and hearsay. But I would be willing to be that there was (and perhaps still *is*) some very serious, and very interesting, haggling going on behind the scenes. There is another difficulty here in that, unlike the "Witnesses" movie, it's not as if the Brethren can do a "roll-out" of a new, more tolerant policy on LGBTQ+ issues.


The quantification of policy making decisions is VERY interesting here. I think these decisions are evidence that there are now at least two factions operating someone independently at high levels of church leadership. Contradictory decisions and policies from a single organization that happen nearly simultaneously (50 days may as well be simultaneous for a large bureaucracy) are evidence that there seems to be at least two groups making decisions without regards to each other. My guess is there is a conservative faction that organized and lead the LDS withdrawal from the BSA while another more liberal group is focusing on BYU issues.

I think you can also conclude that the groups are operating across traditional divisions inside the LDS church. By that I mean the LDS church has organized itself based on gender (YM/YW presidencies), age (Primary/Sunday School/Priesthood/Relief Society presidencies) and geography (Area Authority Seventies). These decisions all affect the same group of people: primarily US male youth. US female youth are also affected, though not as directly since they never participated in Boy Scouts.

If I had to guess, I think it was Russell M. Nelson who inadvertently caused the factionalization over the November exclusion policy. There's lots of evidence that nobody was consulted on the matter before the up and down vote. Then he went off and declared the policy revelation by himself. In the aftermath of that, no other apostle also declared the policy as revelation. He didn't have the presidency at that point, it was a pure power play on Rusty's part. Once you do that, you open up the possibility that another group will form and use similar tactics.

I think another contributing factor to this was Monson's dementia. He wasn't running the show for a long time; this gave space for factions to form. I think this also shows that Rusty is no Gordon Hinckley. The church faced a similar situation in the early 80's with Kimball and the early 90's with Benson. Both were out of it and factions could have formed. But, Hinckley kept the factions at bay and the church unified, with Hinckley holding all the power of course.
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